Eh that is debatable. Using Susanoo pre eternal mangekyou made every cell in his body feel like it was on fire. Bleeding from the eyes, etc. The cursed seal required him to literally DIE to evolve.

We know he took all kinds of drugs/dealt with Orochimaru's version of "training". I doubt it was easy as you think it was, Sharingan or not.

 

Being a Jinchuuriki is the only reason he has the chakra he does in the first place. He would be nothing compared to what he is now without it.

If we use that reasoning, Sasuke's Sharingan cost him his entire family and childhood as well.

100 copies of Naruto working for an hour is not the same as Naruto working for 100 hours. Not even close, the work is all distributed - even if he remembers it all, doing it in the first place just isn't strenous. He never has to struggle for any those skills the way anyone else would have had to.

Sasuke absolutely gets shit just handed to him at every turn, but so does Naruto.

 

The 'die' thing isn't real, actual death. It's a sort of pseudo death. He never passes on to the Pure Lands.

The Susano'o point is fair, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not a skill he earned, it's a skill his eyes give him.

LoL, using the Drugs only increases my point. He gains extra speed and strength not through training, but through having medical experiments and shit done on him. That's not earning or sacrificing, it's having it handed to him.

Also, no. Sharingan = instant training success on anything that isn't the Pure Chakra Control (no seals) or a Bloodline (and maybe Fuinjutsu, it's unknown).

See: The Shishi Rendan. Lee trained with an insane work ethic for years to be able to pull of the Initial Lotus and Secondary Lotus. But every bit of the Omote Renge that Sasuke sees, he can immediately use.

See: The Chidori. Sasuke powers up his Sharingan, Kakashi uses the Chidori, BAM, Sasuke can use the Chidori.

See: The Strong Fist Style. That Kakashi steals from Lee and then gives directly to Sasuke during the Chuunin exams training month.

Sasuke doesn't have to earn his skill, it's given to him, flat out.

And if he wasn't a Jinchuuriki, he probably would have been taught and raised just like everyone else. Also, no, it's not the only reason he has the Chakra he has. He has massive Chakra Reserves because he's an Uzumaki. The Uzumaki are descendants of the Senju, who are both known to have powerful and large chakra reserves.

The idea that Naruto has large chakra reserves because of the Kyuubi is fanon. If you remember, Jiraiya has to specifically teach him how to tap into the Kyuubi's chakra so he can summon Gamabunta, until then he's not drawing on the Kyuubi Chakra.

I'd be willing to accept that they might not be as RIDICULOUSLY large without the Kyuubi, but that's offset by the fact that everyone and their mother says he has great potential, see: Learning the Rasengan in a week, mastering Sage Mode far better than Jiraiya ever did in a TINY fraction of the time, keeping up with Sasuke at learning Tree Climbing. Without it, his skills and knowledge wouldn't have been nearly as far behind everyone else. He could have become a much more typical style Ninja.

This is, of course, not taking into account the difference that being trained by the Fourth Hokage and Uzumaki Kushina, who would have been alive if Naruto didn't have the Kyuubi, would have made on his strength and skill.

No, Sasuke would have had the same potential in his eyes whether or not his family was massacred. Itachi specifically admits to holding Sasuke back because he didn't want Sasuke to become like him. If Itachi hadn't killed them, he still would have the same capability to stare at something and learn it immediately, along with all the other crap that comes with having a Sharingan. Sharingan Eye potential is genetic, just like being a 'Genius' or 'Prodigy' ninja. Naruto could NOT have gained the Kyuubi without his parents dying.

Then why is it that they show him worn out and tired? Is it as strenuous or slow as doing it the normal way? No. But it still takes it's toll on him. He only ever uses the Mass Clone Training trick on Wind Chakra. So you can't claim that all his abilities and skills were gained from it. Not Sage Mode, not Kyuubi Cloak Mode, not the Rasengan, not Summoning.

You're speaking as if he uses the clones to train on all his other skills, but it's not true. He doesn't even realize he can do that until Shippuden. Before and After the Rasenshuriken, all the other skills he trains he learns on his own. With the partial exception of Sage Mode, which he didn't use clones to use to learn, but rather to work around the fact he can't draw Sage Energy on the Move because of the Kyuubi. He studies and masters it himself. Without the Kyuubi, he would have been a Senjutsu user who could rival Hashirama Senju.

Naruto gets some things handed to him, yes, but the only time he uses the Mass Clone Training trick is with the Rasenshurkien. Everything else he uses he had to either sacrifice for or earn. Sasuke cannot claim the same.

 

Especially since theres a chance that if things had been left alone, the world would have progressed towards peace (atleast to some extent) on its own due to everyone having fought together against Obito, Madara and Juubi. Basically, having fought together as an alliance against a common foe will have helped.

The Kage especially have learned stuff from these events: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/562/4

Killing them now is idiotic. A better way would be to try and support Oonokis view and trying to basically help the kage bring the villages closer. Far more likely to help reduce world violence in a way that might actually last after both Sasuke and Naruto are dead.

Which means things collapse after Sasuke dies. And the world is under a dictatorship while Sasuke lives.

Actually, that just might have happened. Kaguya might have been an alien or something. Atleast she was probably from another dimension.

Might also be due to the whole Uzumaki thing considering Nagato (another Uzumaki) was a chakra monster too and Kushinas life force allowed her to survive bijuu extraction. Ofcourse that does not really change your point since he was handed that at birth.

I figure its true both got handed things, though it perhaps feels that Sasuke got it all faster due to gaining so much of it near instantly after awakening MS.

 

Is this what passes for political philosophy? I'm finding Republic's name to be hilariously ironic.

But on the particular point of hard work vs genius: Both Naruto and Sasuke had enormous advantages handled to them - advantages they did not earn and could not have earned. Naruto no more deserved the world-eating power of the Kyuubi than Sasuke deserved the ever-deadly sharingan.

 

Walking Disaster, do you even pay attention during scenes with Sasuke and the sharingan? It is true that during the wave fight, the sharingan was simplified to copying things. But as the manga progressed we saw it's limits. For the regular Uchiha Shinobi here are the limits:

Taijutsu: limited by ones own body.
Genjutsu: Uchiha can see chakra and illusions, however if they are not skilled in genjutsu themselves they can be caught in it. They just have an advantage over non Uchiha.

Ninjutsu: this is the confusion. If the sharingan copied all it saw, why weren't Uchiha throwing around every jutsu known to man? Why doesn't Sasuke just use the rasengan? Why is it so special that Kakashi is the copy ninja?

The sharingan allows an Uchiha to know how a technique is performed, but not necessarily able to do it themselves. If an Uchiha lacks chakra control, capacity, basic intelligence, or has yet to master that element then copying and performing a technique is a lot harder than ya think.

The basic sharingan is not as Hax as most think. It's merely a faster tool of learning. And actually slower in comparison to Kage Bunshin.

As for the woa is me emo thing...a lot of characters have done the exact same stuff on the manga. I don't think Sasukes past justifies his actions but he isn't emo. He doesn't wallow in it, he moves to action. Naruto has had just as many emo moments as Sasuke.

 

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Well, I'm pretty sure Sasuke's at the point where he's decided that the world as a whole would be better off if he was in charge. His perspective on things is so messed up that he might actually believe that the best chance for peace is make him the fuhrer of the ninja world. Which probably tells you a lot about how messed up his perspective is in the first place.

The big issue I see with Sasuke's whole revolution plan is that he doesn't actually seem to have any constructive ideas. Maybe on some level he actually wants to make the world a better place, but his plan seems to consist of:

1) Betray all my friends and allies.
2) Kill anyone who could possibly oppose me
3) Murder a lot more people, just because.
4) ????
5) All the world's problems are solved.

I have to point out, the one thing revolutions absolutely suck at producing is peace. If you're lucky, you end up with a whole lot of violence and death, but a somewhat better system by the end of it. But so far Sasuke hasn't shown any real capacity to create, all he's done is destroy.

If he wants to be a revolutionary, I have a distinct feeling his revolution would never get past the Reign of Terror unless someone else took over.

 

As I thought, Sasuke apologists continue to defend him, thumbs up to you who resist them

 

...who was defending Sasuke?

His plan is retarded, everybody knows that. The discussion was about power-ups, and how Naruto is just as bullshit as Sasuke is. Saying otherwise is like complaining about Aizen being hax while ignoring what an abomination Ichigo is.


Hell, with the nonsense about being the reincarnations of the Sage's sons, they are now explicitly two sides of the same bullshit-coin.

 

What you're ignoring is that his eyes are only so hax because Sasuke's such a strong ninja. He didn't wake up one morning with MS. I believe that a ninja has to be of a certain strength in the first place to even awaken MS. Sasuke worked his behind off with Oro to the point that he was strong enough to influence the Kyuubi with Base Sharingan and had Kurama comparing his chakra to Madara's.

Are we forgetting that Sasuke using drugs to increase his speed and strength is just Sakura's speculation because she can't accept how much he's improved? We've seen that Sasuke's speed can dramatically increase in short spans of time so that speculation is iffy. He's only in the same speed tier as Kiba and Lee at the point that she says that anyway. I'd say that Uchiha speed and strength probably increase with the strength of their chakra and their chakra potency increases with the strength of their eyes. Uchiha are known for strong chakra.

That's nonsense. You can't sharingan copy physical conditioning or chakra reserves/potency.

I think he also hurts himself doing so because his body isn't conditioned enough to take it.

You do realize that we don't see that much of them training and so you're just assuming things right? If that was true then Sasuke would have only needed to be trained for 15 minutes instead of a full month. Sasuke needed to train his speed to the level that using the chidori was practical. Sasuke also showed a degree of control over lightning in general after that month. I wouldn't be surprised if Kakashi had to teach Sasuke to control lightning before he learned could even learn chidori.

You do realize how ridiculous that sounds right? Kakashi steal from Lee? You do remember that Kakashi and Guy often train against each other right? He probably knew Strong Fist better than Lee.

You just like to ignore the effort that Sasuke puts into his training.

 

Fun Fact: Sasuke only trained for two weeks. 15 days after the training month began, Sasuke finally left the hospital after recovering from the sealing(s).

And Kakashi did state that Sasuke learned nature transformation when he was telling Naruto about the Chidori, PTS.

 

Theres no proof of that. The only thing said when it comes to MS is that you must suffer sufficient loss, such as killing close friends. Which does amusingly mean that Sasuke did just wake up with MS one morning (from killing Itachi).

Kakashi infact serves as an example of someone awakening MS with a body too weak to handle it. The user just loses consciousness.

That was never particularly impressive, since all Sasuke influenced was a "construct" that Kyuubi had built outside its cage. A construct that Naruto had already refused. Had Sasuke actually controlled the real Kyuubi inside the cage, while Naruto was actively trying to use Kyuubis power, then it would have been impressive. As it is, Sasuke basically just punched and dispelled Kyuubis version of a shadow clone.

I will say that the Madara comparison is interesting in light of the whole thing with both Madara and Sasuke being "transmigrants" of Indra. I suspect its just a coincidence though, and Kishi had not come up with that plot point yet. Still, I guess it does fit, even if by accident.

I think when it comes to powers just being handed to Sasuke, people probably refer to the power creep in the last hundred+ chapters. Which is to say after Sasuke awakened MS. Its after that happened that things basically became mostly sharingan-hax and nothing else.

Once that happened, any training or physical conditioning mostly became irrelevant. From that point, Sasuke mostly spammed Amaterasu and Susanoo. He spammed it enough infact that he went blind in basically a week or so, and then Obito handed him EMS, at which point Sasuke continued spamming Amaterasu and perfect Susanoo. And then Hagoromo handed him the Rinnegan.

Ofcourse Naruto was not all that different. The last powerup that Naruto actually fought for was the KCM, and even then Kushina helped significantly. All powerups after that were freely handed to Naruto too. Kurama decided to become friendly and gave Naruto BM. Most of the other bijuu gave Naruto their chakra, and Obito gave Naruto the two he was missing. And Hagoromo handed Naruto the super-senjutsu that let Naruto use those "truth-seeking balls".

Before KCM, I think the last time Naruto trained was when he learned Sage Mode. That was the one thing he was shown training for, and then later practising to improve his skill with.

 

Yeah, Naruto trained for Sage Mode (though even then he learned faster than anyone and better than Jiraiya, with decades of experience in it, for unexplained reasons) but got basically every other powerup for free. He worked for the improvement over the Shippuden time-skip but that improvement, compared with everything else that's happened is negligible.

Sasuke worked for the awesome Lightning techniques he showed off against Itachi, since we see, IIRC, some flashback of him training it. And then he got tons of powerups.

But really, both have just had power after power handed to them.

 

Those lightning techniques mostly vanished the moment Sasukes MS appeared.

The one thing I will say about Naruto, is that it was good that Sage Mode actually retained a degree of relevance even with all the bijuu-powerups and so on. Even Narutos recent ultimate-super-mode that he got from Hagoromo is a form of enhanced Sage Mode.

I liked the fact that Naruto still used SM even after getting the bijuu modes

 

Well I like to use Itachi's explanation of the EMS as an example. He states that many people where sacrificed to attain power like Madara but not just anyone could do it. I believe it's referring to the MS and EMS as you don't actually need to kill anyone to take their eyes. Plus there's common sense logic to back it up. If you just need to suffer sufficient loss then the MS should have been all over the place. Instead the first people in recent memory to awaken it just happen to be the two kage level Uchiha? Every other Uchiha that we know of with MS also just happen to be unusually powerful? If suffering sufficient loss was the only requirement then why did Sasuke only awaken a single tomoe on the worst day of his life?

To me it just seems logical that Uchiha have to be of a certain strength to power up their sharingan. Like the amount of special brain chakra they can produce is influenced by their chakra reserves. That way no matter what you'll never see a 6 year old MS user running around.

I don't see Kakashi as an example of anything but an odd situation. Kakashi didn't awaken the MS. He has no Uchiha brain chakra. Obito awakened the MS and since Kakashi was nearby and their eyes were in sync his eye evolved as well. Obito was the one with the strength to awaken it and he was half Hashirama cells at the time.

I consider the fact that he could do it at all impressive. He pretty much cut Naruto's connection to the Kyuubi off. Not as impressive as it could have been but I think it still speaks to the strength of his sharingan at the time.

Since Uchiha basically get stronger eyes and presumably more potent chakra with darker emotions I consider Kyuubi comparing Sasuke's chakra to Madara's and calling it more sinister than his own a telling statement.

Sasuke trained his sharingan at that point. He worked on increasing the strength and control of his MS abilities. Also Itachi's eyes were Sasuke's to take after his fight with Itachi and he turned down the EMS so that week or so could be looked at as training. Physical conditioning of course becomes irrelevant when the stronger chakra from your new power up makes you faster and/or stronger. The same can be said even more for Naruto though. Sasuke at least had respectable speed after the time skip while Naruto was at chuunin level.

I don't think battle and training can be completely separated where ninja are concerned. Someone like Sasuke learns and improves best in battle. We clearly see Sasuke get stronger as he fights. I don't see why there's a huge difference between working specifically for a power up and surviving multiple S rank shinobi and then getting a power up. What unless you're training specifically for that power up it's a hand out? Obito sold Sasuke out at the summit specifically so that he could train up his eyes. He gets attacked by all 5 kages, improves his MS dramatically, and then gets EMS.

 

As was already said, Naruto and Sasuke both got powerups left and right, with barely having to do anything for them.

My question is, after Sasuke is done for, what will happen with Orochimaru? Is he going back to be the villain? Naruto and Sasuke could both curbstomp him now...

Really, doesn't that tell you everything you need to know about who "deserves" their power ups? Naruto and Sasuke can destroy kage level shinobi with ease at this point, why are we arguing about this? None of them do, they both got shit relatively for free/cheap for similar bullshit reasons.

 

The difference being that Sasuke is an Evil Fuck with crappy justifications for wanting to murder people and put himself in power via goddamn Revolution (thus War) and Naruto is genuinely Good. End Of. There's a reason that HE is Ninja Jesus and not Sasuke.

I still maintain that Naruto worked for far more of his power and progress (before the Sage Handouts) than Sasuke did, but that argument is old now.

Sasuke got his powerup because the Sage wanted to maintain balance, but we can all see how that turned out.

Would have been better if he'd just given it all to Naruto. Then we wouldn't be in this mess. Sasuke was basically useless against Kaguya anyway.

 

If the Sage had given it all to Naruto then Naruto probably would have died and then Kaguya or Madara would be victorious. Would the power up be as potent for Naruto as it would be for Sasuke? Almost certainly not. He probably wouldn't have awakened the Rinnegan and even if he did he wouldn't have been as skilled with it due to lack of experience with doujutsu.

 

Actually Naruto probably would have been a master. Thanks to the power of Kishimoto.