Going back and looking at the previous page...all i can do is sheepishly scratch my head and apologize.

 

Haven't read the whole debate, but the downplaying of Sasuke's performance against Itachi bothers me.

Sasuke not only hit Itachi, he really fucked him up with his rigged windmill shuriken trick. After that, Itachi had to resort to MS techniques like Amaterasu and Susanoo to keep up with Sasuke. Sure, Itachi might have been holding back (though I don't see how, since he needed to use his Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu to even survive), but so was Sasuke by default.

A major trait of Sasuke at that point in the story was his unwillingness to kill his friends in order to unlock his Mangekyou. The reason he went to Orochimaru was to gain power his own way, not Itachi's way. He knew what he was risking and sacrificing by sparing Naruto at the Valley of the End, but he did it anyway. He confronted Itachi in full knowledge that his elder brother's doujutsu was superior. But that didn't stop him, because for three years he'd done nothing but prepare for their final encounter.

Sasuke's genjutsu was about as good as you can get with a three-tomoe Sharingan, his shuriken technique was as good as or better than Itachi's, his nature transformation skills were superior, and his tactical thinking pushed Itachi to the very limit (i.e. Kirin).

A healthy Itachi likely would have done much better, but as it was he had to really struggle against Sasuke.

Also, Itachi did not solo Nagato. If not for combining his Yasaka Magatama with Naruto's Rasenshuriken and Bee's Tailed Beast Ball, he would have been fucked. Sure, he had the insight to do that, but he couldn't have done it alone.

 

When you start denying canon events it becomes hard to argue with you. Everything I have said so far is a fact. I don't have the time or inclination to give you proof everytime you have doubts about what I'm saying.
BTW you still haven't acknowledged that you were wrong about when Sasuke awakened his sharingan.
I never said anything about Sakura fighting Pein. I clearly said that she took out a Pein 'SUMMON'. If you have doubts about it check the manga during The Invasion Of Pein Arc. I'm sure its there.
Evidently I remember the battle with Sasori very differently. Yes she had Chiyo's help but you can't reduce her contribution to a measly 20%. She was the reason they stayed alive long enough to defeat him.
I suggest you read the battle again and tell me why you think that.
And for the record Sakura has replicated if not surpassed all of Tsunade's feats by the end of the manga.

That is a fact.

Take it how you want to.

 

Your argument about Sakura is absurd. Her medical jutsu was in league with Tsunade's and her chakra control was better than Shizune's. Saying she's not a genius in those fields because she hasn't one upped her master yet is nonsense.

They're exactly the same. The only difference would be training. Summons in Naruto live in the same world and receive shinobi training as well. Bringing up Naruto's summons make this clear. Ma and Pa are exceptionally powerful shinobi. The difference is that Kiba's achievement is actually pointed out as being special and worthy of praise. If Kakashi had made a comment about how far Hinata could see then you'd have a point. Also Kakashi using his dogs for tracking more than fighting so saying that that's what the Inuzuka is all about is pointless.

I'm making a point. Shino is clearly more skilled than Hinata.

I'm pretty sure that fight's not shown on panel. All we see is the end of it which is Chouji putting down Kakuzu.

Then what was it there for? Obviously to help with the communication. That's just common sense. Anyway you're once again trying to use the best to downgrade the second best. Ino doing something that only her dad has done still puts her at the top of the clan.

It was a bad choice of words to call it the basic gentle fist. Neji was taught the gentle fist. There are select techniques within that style that he didn't learn that he figured out. As in almost everything in the gentle fist is open for everyone in the clan to know but a handful of jutsu. Neji teaching himself two jutsu based directly on everything he was taught is not the great accomplishment you're making it out as. Also Sharingan users only learn what they see. You can't look at a person fighting for 12 seconds and know their entire fighting style. Sasuke copied a little of Lee's fighting style. Kakashi then taught him the rest during their training. Also you can't copy physical conditioning so Sasuke had to do that himself.

Because it is attributed to Sasuke and not the Sharingan. Because guess what? He learns faster than others in his clan tend to. You make statements like that and forget that the people in the series have actually met Uchiha before so when they say Sasuke's a genius they know what they're talking about. When they're surprised at how quickly he picks things up then that's because most other Uchiha couldn't.

There are limits to the sharingan that you're not really seeing. They can only use jutsu for elements they've mastered, they have to actually learn to use genjutsu before they can start catching people in them, and they can't copy physical conditioning. I don't think learning elemental manipulation can be done purely with the sharingan because you don't use handseals for the basics.

I was more referring to after Sasuke fought Danzo. After he healed up from that he'd have given Itachi a good fight.

As I said I was talking about after Danzo. Also you're talking nonsense. Itachi didn't solo Nagato, Itachi only beat Kabuto because Sasuke was backing him up, and Sasuke was clearly much stronger than Itachi when he seriously started using the EMS against Obito and Madara.

I find it amusing how you continuously downplay what happened when it suits you. Itachi wasn't trying to win, but he was trying to push Sasuke to the very limits of his power. You speak as though he was fighting like Madara. Also Sasuke did touch him. Notice how Itachi died immediately after the fight ended. He was forced to use Susanoo and went blind during the battle. Itachi may have been holding back(or just sick) but Sasuke still took him to his limit. Note that Sasuke broke Itachi's Tsukuyomi with his basic sharingan.

Your facts are nonsensical and prove nothing. Bee was the first battle Sasuke had with his MS and clearly wasn't used to it yet. He mastered it fighting Danzo. That's the level that one should use for MS Sasuke.

Sasuke lost the cursed seal after fighting Itachi so all his power was his own until the sage.

I gave my reasons. Itachi inherited Shisui's nindo. That's perfected clear. He decided to protect the shinobi world from the shadows. Shisui is also several years older than him. Regardless of Shisui it's still pretty obvious that Itachi was trained by Fugaku at some point.

Well, if we're using sharingan activation as a measure of talent then he's way ahead of the curve. Also it shows how the trauma affected his development.

 

All this dick waving is getting pretty gross.

 

Were you channeling Sai just now?

 

Even I feel that this argument isn't worth getting into -- and I'm like at the very least the court jester of frivolous arguments.

 

Holy thread revival Batman.

I've been looking at various wiki and databook sources recently, trying to pinpoint the exact (usual) age of entry into the Konoha Ninja Academy. However, a lot of it has been contradictory. Characters seem to be entering and staying into the Academy whenever and for however long the plot wants.

Supremely guilty of this are Sasuke and Naruto (of course). Sasuke supposedly started the Academy before the massacre, around the time Itachi joined ANBU. Sasuke was, at most, six years old at the time. And yet he graduated around age 12-13. Assuming he didn't put the Academy on hiatus for some time, that's over 7 years. We know Sasuke and Naruto are the same age, and Naruto was sixteen around Pain's arc. Two years of traveling with Jiraiya, a few months before and after the skip, that places him around thirteen at the time of Part 1, same with Sasuke.
Naruto himself is said (by Iruka) to have been in the Academy for 3 years (I think?). So what, he joined at 9? But he also supposedly failed twice, something I don't see Sasuke doing. Was Sasuke's entry into the Academy at 5-6 also extremely young? But we aren't given that impression, are we? Supposedly Sasuke's entry was just like normal, rather than very young like Itachi's.

Then there are the cases of Itachi, Kakashi, etc who supposedly joined at extremely young ages and graduated within the year. That would mean that the Academy curriculum is either such that can be learned within a year (so no chain of subjects like maths that literally take years to learn), or these people are genius enough to actually stuff 3-6 years of Academy lessons into a few months, or they were picked out for their potential and advanced ahead of their classmates, to be taught at their own pace and by specialized instructors.

Regardless, while the ages of graduation all match, it is not so for the ages of entry. Does anyone else have insights on this? Am I missing something important?

 

If we use anime flashbacks then I remember a scene when Sasuke was running home with a test paper to his parents on the night of the massacre, and he looked the same as when he first enrolled, (also Naruto was scene at the academy in said flashback)

The failed three times seems to be one of those things Kishi included but didnt really think through on the timeline side of things tho.

In the flashback in the war arc when Kyubi taunts Naruto about Sasuke we see Sakura/Ino/Choji/Shikamaru watching Naruto vs Sasuke and this is shortly after the massacre as well, so I think 6 would be the usual age tbh.

 

There was a flashback (one of Kiba's) showing that Naruto still hadn't learned Henge properly by his third year at the Academy which is probably what you're thinking of.

My headcanon is that there are two mock exams and one real exam, either one exam at the end of the last three years or all three exams in the final year. So his age wouldn't be a problem there.

 

So people join at age 6 and stay there until 12? I guess it fits, though six years seems like too long.

 

I've always looked at the Academy as very little different from gradeschool for us. Except it's gradeschool on how to be a ninja essentially. So yea, a true genius like Itachi/Kakashi(Sasuke was not a genius despite how many times Kishi told us he was, sorry) flew through the curriculum that normally takes x(likely 6) amount of years to finish for everyone else, from the dead-lasts to the exceptionally talented-but-not-true-genius-level. No different from a genius in the real world being able to handle college-level work at 12 years old.

No matter how you slice it, both Naruto and Sasuke joining the academy at the same time makes 0 sense given the fact that Naruto failed the graduation test twice and then ended up in the class with the supporting roster + Sasuke on his 3rd attempt.

Which means, the answer to your queries is simple, Naruto started the Academy 3 years sooner than Sasuke, each time he failed he got reshuffled into a new class going into their final "class" which they take the graduation exam after finishing.

Sasuke did indeed join at the 'normal' age, its Naruto(and Kakashi/Itachi) who joined at abnormal ages. You gotta remember when Kakashi/Itachi joined, it was during war times, so they needed more shinobi which meant a lower age requirement to become a genin. As for Naruto, i imagine him pleading to the 3rd made him make a special exception for Naruto.

I base most of this on this chapter. It's when the 3rd is giving a speech welcoming the Academy hopefuls to the academy. It even shows a few of the classmates for their first class. It's true you only see Shikamaru/Chouji from the front, but when they're lined up talking to the 3rd, you can see from behind a one girl is almost certainly Sakura and another looks to be Hinata.

I'm 99.9% sure Naruto wasn't a part of Sasuke's initial academy class where he grew up with Shikamaru/Chouji/the others, mainly due to Naruto not being shown in that chapter at all(i know it was a Sasuke-centric flashback but they showed Shikamaru/Chouji so). Naruto didn't join that class until he was reshuffled into their class after his 2nd failure.

tl;dr Yes, the academy material can be mastered by a true genius(like Kakashi/Itachi) in a very short amount of time compared to everyone else just like in real life a genius 12 year old can already master college level calculus and etc.

And everything in the manga seems to point to age ~6 being the normal age to start the academy during peacetime. Kakashi/Itachi joined during wartime so the age was lowered, and most likely Naruto was given an exception by the 3rd hokage to start 3 years sooner as it's the only logical way i can think of to excuse the fact he failed the graduation exam twice and then passed with the rest of the teams we know on his 3rd try(assuming its not a plothole).

 

Just a thought: Naruto was probably put into the academy at the same time as Kakashi/Itachi (prodigies) because it was probably expected that he would be one. Both of his parents were grade-A badasses, and he has the strongest of the tailed beasts sealed into him. Not sure about the manga but the early episodes of the anime have everyone in a position of power thinking "Naruto is the legacy of the Fourth!".

And somewhat more pragmatically, they probably put him into classes early as free daycare.

 

Can you tell me where to find this? If it's true, it confirms that Sasuke and Naruto entered at the same time.

 

Chapter 75, Page 5 (Mangapanda).

 

I actually think that's a mistranslation of a sort. When Iruka said "This is your 3rd year at the academy!!" I think he means this is his 3rd year in that class, which seems to be the senior year or last class before graduation.

It just feels that way to me because for one, on the very same page you see a couple randoms in the class say "This new kid in our class is pretty funny" meaning Naruto was a new transfer to that class. And Kiba also says "Who is that?" showing he also didn't know who Naruto was but seemed to be familiar with everyone else.

That's basically proof that Naruto -wasn't- in their class to begin with and i'm fairly certain it's because he started 3 years before thus repeating that last year-long class 3 times because that last class is where you learn Henge and etc which you can't pass the graduation exam unless you can do henge, bunshin, kawarimi and have a basic understanding of taijutsu/genjutsu (unless your other skills can carry the lack of others as for Lee).

We all saw Naruto/Sasuke/Kiba/etc learning taijutsu and henge/bunshin together so it's safe to assume they save those parts for the last class before you graduate because it's the only time we even see Naruto in the same class as them.

 

In that scene in the manga Naruto spent three years in the academy before joining the class that everyone else was in.

What is not clear is whether that meant Naruto was in the Academy longer than everyone else or whether he was in a different class of the same year and was transferred. Everyone in that flashback was younger than they were at the start of canon and Naruto was introduced like a transfer student would rather than one student among many on the first day of class.