I've come to the conclusion that summoning acts like a kind of temporary Pokeball. The summoner throws the pokeball (Chakra) at whatever he's summoning, with the Pokeball taking more chakra for the more powerful summons. Kind of like using a regular pokeball on the weaker summons, a greatball the mid-tier summons, a SuperBall on the High-Tier, and a Master-ball on the boss.

The thing is, the pokeball can also be helped along by the summon, by using their own chakra to strengthen it, but only to an extent.

After awhile, the durability of the pokeball deteriorates, but said deterioration can be stalled by either summon or summoner adding more chakra. This is a temporary measure, however and cannot be kept up becaus eventually the rate of deterioration will excel the possible amount of chakra being fed into it. Once that happens, the Summon is released back into the wild. (Read: Return Home)

If that makes any sense at all. I don't know how well things make sense when you bring poke-logic into it.

 

My problem with an arbitrary time limit is that Naruto and Jiraiya went on training trips to the toad mountain. Naruto stayed for like a week.

 

It's very possible that summons reside in naturally chakra rich environments. In my little pokeball theory, time wouldn't be the only factor in the deterioration, just the most prevalent. While residing in the toad mountain, the pokeball would be able to feed, for lack of a better word, on the natural energy.

EDIT/NOTE: It could also be that only the Toads, or other Senjutsu capable Summons are ableto achieve such a feat, by using natural energy to feed the bond/pokeball/whatever. Do we have any evidence of other summons doing the same thing as the toads did with Jiraiya and Naruto?

 

Let me just clear this up right now, because too many of you are using the word "arbitrary", when I never suggested anything like that ( that was Garden's doing ). The time limit I speculated about would be based on a variety of factors, including but not limited to: chakra capacity, chakra control, target mass and personal affinity for the technique. You know....kinda like with any other jutsu's limitations.

A simple explanation for Naruto being able to pend weeks on Mt. Myoboku is that he's in pretty proficient at summoning himself, not to mention his ridiculous chakra capacity. As for Jiraiya....he was never summoned. As the first Toad Summoner, he had to make is way to Mt. Myoboku on foot.

Oh, and Menace, when the toads summoned Naruto, do you think he somehow become limited to whatever amount of chakra they used to summon him? Last I checked, he still had the Kyuubi chakra and buttloads to do Rasenshurikens up there.

 

That's why I brought up the other theory. Which, uh, isn't very different from your theory? The only difference that I'm seeing is the summoning is instantaneous in mine and somehow not in yours. Which I'm still not buying, because it's always an immediate thing in the manga, and I don't know how it would work if it wasn't.

 

It's not that difficult a concept to grasp. It involves really really really really fast displacement. Think supercharged kawarimi, except, while someone using the kawarimi could be knocked out of it with a fast enough rock or tracked by sharp enough senses, summoning doesn't have those weaknesses because it happens via subspace.

With my theory you can account for similarly skilled persons with space/time abilities being able to beat each other (e.g. -minato versus masked man), because there are various magnitudes of speed capable all of which would seem "instantaneous" to even something like the sharingan. Saying these techniques are instant teleportation is just a dumbing down of the most complex type of ninja art.

Oh, and just because it seems instantaneous in the manga doesn't mean it is. I'm sure we all remember Rock Lee appearing to be God in terms of speed. It's all relative. Plus, it's a static drawing.

 

That's not how the Minato vs Obito fight went, though. Minato didn't 'outspeed' Obito's Kamui with his Hiraishin. He waited until Obito dropped the Kamui and then he used Hiraishin to nail him before he could react.

There's also the fact that the Hiraishin is described as being an instantaneous transportation technique. Point blank, that's its description. So...

 

None of those factors really explain Gamakichi's situation that you're basing this on. I say arbitrary because it'll almost certainly come off as arbitrary in the series. It might work in a story where those factors are discussed beforehand though.

Naruto has a lot of chakra but don't forget that he was training constantly. I recall Jiraiya accidentally reverse summoning himself there the first time though that may have been filler.

 

I'm sure it would appear to be instantaneous to whoever witnessed it.

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They explain it pretty well actually. Let's compare Gamakichi to Gamabunta. Bunta is stronger, has more chakra and has more experience with summonings. It doesn't seem to far-fetched to believe that those factors are what enable him to maintain his summonings for extremely extended periods. It's like the difference between a genin and a jounin doing the water walking exercise. It's second nature to the jounin whereas the genin is easily exerted and can easily fall through the water if his focus is taxed.

 

Gamakichi has remained summoned just as long as Gamabunta before. He was there when the Sannin fought, against Gaara, and against Nagato. Time doesn't seem to be the deciding factor.

 

Weren't all those times at the end of the fight though? There was no reason for them to stick around any longer.

EDIT: AT the very least, it was the case for Gaara. I may be misremembering the Sannin fight.

They also just would've been a tad bit useless in the Pein fight. Either that, or Naruto just wanted to fight Pein on his own.

EDIT 2: Also, wasn't it Ma Toad who summoned them all there? Going by the PF's theory, it's possible Ma just couldn't hold the connection any longer.

I don't know, I may have to find the chapters again and reread them.

 

You have to remember that Naruto still supplies fuel for the summoning.

It's most likely a case of when Naruto's spent chakra runs out, the summons take over maintaining it. Gamakichi was tiny at the start. He probably didn't cost Naruto much for enough chakra to maintain.

In the Pein fight, Gamakichi still wasn't as large as the boss summons. He was still small enough to fit on Gamabunta's head, so not as much of a maintenance fee.

In this fight, Kichi's grown as big as Bunta. The cost probably also went up in accordance.

 

Wrong. Jiraiya actually obtained Toad Contract when he reverse-summoned himself to Myobokuzan without any contract. My guess is that his chakra resonated with toad's chakra or something.

 

Is this manga canon?

I have a vague issue of this being brought up before, and someone claimed it only happened in the anime, making it non-canon as a result. Does anyone remember this happening anywhere in the manga?

 

It was shown only in anime, but manga doesn't say that Jiraiya just walked to Myobokuzan. And I believe I remember seeing flashback in manga where Jiraiya was training with Toads at very young age, but as ninja he can't just leave Konoha, especially at the beginning of his career, Sandaime wouldn't allow it.

 

So it's a theory, is what you're saying.

 

lol. I thought that everything what happens in anime should be considered canon unless it was contradicted in manga. After all, anime makers consult with Kishimoto and his manager from Jump.

 

Not really, no. The way I've always understood it is that unless Kishimoto says otherwise, the only things that are canon are the manga and source materials like databooks and fanbooks. Things that come from the man himself. Only exceptions would be Sakura's parents who were designed by Kishimoto, one of the Seven Mist Swords which he adapted into the manga and Road to Ninja which you could probably call a canonical alternate universe.

Anyway, the only way to reach Mt. Myoboku is to be reversed summoned by someone with the toad contract or via a secret path so says the Third Databook. It's implied that was Jiraiya was one of the travelers who inadvertently gets on the secret path.

Honestly, if you take the anime as canon then you're gonna end up with all kinds of weird ideas. Good example is the latest episode where Naruto has a talk with Edo!Utakata (in their minds) which is a throwback to an anime-only arc but isn't canon at all. Anime is canon for anime and that alone.

 

Ah, yes... but Utakata was presented in anime first, and Kishi just adopted him. Or more probably Kishi just told anime makers of Rokubi jinchuuriki story and his design before he showed him in manga.

 

No, it does not work like that. Anime is not canon when it comes to manga, period.

We simply don't know how Jiraiya became a summoner for certain. Its possible for example that the scroll for summoning toads was in the possession of Konoha, and simply had not been used before, and Sarutobi let Jiraiya sign it.

The fact that Tobirama instantly recognized Gamakichi as being from from the toad mounain (I don't even try to spell that name) would suggest familiarity with the toads, which might suggest that maybe the Senju had that contract prior to the founding of the village. If so, it would have passed on to Sarutobi, which means Jiraiya could have just signed it the way Naruto himself did and no big mystery there. After that, he was reverse summoned to the mountain later, had the big prophecy and learned SM and toad-based techniques.

Given that its somewhat implied that Hashirama himself is using slug-SM (if he is not using some unique mokuton-SM anyway), there would be precedent to Senju bringing in summoning scrolls to Konoha that were passed on, in this case slugs to Tsunade.

Sure, but lets face it, Utakata did not really play any real role in the manga beyond his name and face, making this a very insignificant concession to the manga, even if Kishi did indeed get his name from the anime. I am pretty sure that in the manga, he is basically an edo that never speaks a word, then becomes a full bijuu, then vanishes as Edo Tensei ends. His "role" could have literally been taken by absolute anyone, with no change. In other words, while the character might have had the same identity, the personality given to the guy in the anime filler-arc was 100% ignored by Kishi.

Furthermore, it does mean that until such time as summoning without scroll takes you to the summons that best suit you is also "adopted" this way and actually mentioned or shown in the manga, its not canon.