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New PC 3.0

Discussion in 'Tech Support' started by Eilyfe, May 22, 2020.

  1. Eilyfe

    Eilyfe Chief Warlock

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    I summon thee, tech wizards of DLP.

    It is that time of the year again. I’m in the mood of upgrading my rig for the pleasure of playing the new upcoming AAA titles (looking at you Cyberpunk). That’s the goal. Playing Triple-As on 1920x1080 144hz, all on ultra for a few years to come.

    To that effect, here’s what I have found so far and also a few questions.

    Fractal Design R5 (my old case, hopefully still servicable)
    AMD Ryzen 5 3600 3.6 GHz
    Corsair Vengeance LPX 16 GB DDR4-3200

    Now for the trickier stuff. I’m not sure if I should go for an RTX 2070 Super or an RX 5700 XT. As far as I know the 2070 has raytracing while the 5700 is cheaper. Does raytracing impact the visual quality of a game by a lot?

    Then there is my old Thermalright HR-02 Macho Rev.B: is that one still serviceable for the new CPU? And what about my old PSU (be quiet! Straight Power 10 500W CM)? 500 seems a bit on the low end but I’m rapidly approaching the borders of my computer knowledge.

    As for the motherboard, I’m also open for suggestions. I would like one with M2, though. In any case I would prefer to stay under or around ~1000€ on the whole (which is why I’m open for reusing old parts if at all possible).

    I'd be grateful for any help on offer. Due to current circumstances that would also be the first PC I'd build entirely on my own (including disassembling the old one).
     
  2. Dansel

    Dansel First Year

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    Alright, let's see.

    1) The case.
    Fractal Design is pretty much the poster child of 'unremarkably good'. If you're happy with it I see no reason for you to have to buy another as long as you keep two things in mind: Newer graphics cards are big; you're likely going to end up having to remove one of the drive bays to fit it. If that's not a problem, go ahead. And you're likely going to want to add extra fans beyond the included ones because of higher TDP in a lot of components. VRM and Chipset tend to rely a lot on ambient air for cooling.

    2) Motherboard.
    Because of the upcoming Ryzen Zen 3, and the knock on effects this has had on BIOS development, I'd honestly recommend paying a little extra for the x570 boards. This will secure you for a potential CPU update without having to gamble on buying a b450 boards where support will be available. It will also pave to road for any future PCIe 4.0 components. While these are not available now to any real extent if you wish to upgrade your GPU in another three or four years? Will likely be one of those things that make your life easier down the line.

    3) Cooler.
    According to the developer the Macho is rated for cooling a 240w CPU (theoretically). Given that the 3600 is rated at 65w? I don't think you'll have any problems, as long as you still have all the relevant mounting hardware. Going to need new paste though.

    4) Nvme
    Honestly? Probably not necessary. On the wast majority of casual use cases the difference between a sata ssd and a nvme ssd is going to be negligible. With that said Samsung's controllers are still the best available for consumers and they havn't launched their PCIe 4.0 lineup yet. Their 3.0 lineup still beats everyone else's 4.0 in random IOPS, though, and that is really what you care about for an OS disk. Unless you know that you're going to be doing a lot of sequential transfers of 100s of GB of data? Go with Samsung.

    5) Graphics
    5700xt is a solid card, especially now with the driver issues done away with. This is mostly a question of if you're going for performance per dollar or just performance. Nvidia's cards are better, but they are pricier too.

    RTX is one of those things you don't really notice when you first enable it, but when you go back to a game which doesn't have everything just feels flat. You get used to static shadows and columetric lighting and no reflections pretty quick again but there really is an "oh yeah, this is how it looks without rtx" moment. AMD does have raytracing in the pipeline and it does appear to be a part-software development that will likely be available to some degree on older hardware, to some degree, but don't quote me on that.

    6) PSU
    500w is going to be on the edge during full load, probably. I'd honestly recommend upgrading but even without it? Unless you're going to do folding@home 24/7 it shouldn't be any issue. A couple of hours of gaming every other day isn't going to pose any problem, as long as you got decent airflow around your case. I'd recommend a 650w PSU for a build like this normally.

    7) RAM
    Your kit is one of those that'd I'd call good enough. On applications/games which hit the memory hard you'd likely see a pretty significant fps boost by buying a better kit though. When I overclocked my memory from 3200 cl14 to 3200cl12 I noticed a performance increase of about ~15% for gaming. Going all the way to 3800cl13 was an increase of about 40%. (I'm averaging min fps, max fps here). It's very likely you could overclock the ones you have a fair bit already, but really good memory is pricey. I paid about 400 usd for a 2x16gb kit that can hit those speeds and timings (this was 3800mhz with 13-13-13-26 timings, and really tight subtimings), and that is really not worth it if your concern is performance per dollar.


    PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/RggHZf

    CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor ($189.99 @ B&H)
    Motherboard: Gigabyte X570 AORUS PRO WIFI ATX AM4 Motherboard ($269.99 @ Best Buy)
    Storage: Samsung 970 Evo Plus 500 GB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($124.99 @ Adorama)
    Video Card: Gigabyte Radeon RX 5700 XT 8 GB GAMING OC Video Card ($409.99 @ Newegg)
    Total: $994.96
    Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
    Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-05-23 15:40 EDT-0400


    Motivation:
    Very solid CPU that likely going to be good enough for anything you're going to be throwing at it for the next five or six years.
    Motherboard: I went with gigabyte because I think their feature set is some of the most well developed this generation, and you get WiFi included. Good VRM, good RAM support, and all around well made board.
    The GPU was honestly just the one that was the first result on the search, and while I don't have any personal experience with AMD GPUs from Gigabyte they've done good job on the Nvidia ones I've bought. The times I've had to reach out to their support has always been a very painless experience too.

    Their RGB software sucks, though.

    Samsung NVme, 500gb. Nothing fancy and 500gb is enough really. I'd recommend buying a 2-4tb mechanical drive for storage though.


    Now, while this will hit the ~1000€ pricepoint it's not going to be able run everything at Ultra. Next highest, probably, if you want to hit 144hz at 1080p. Can't really speculate on Cyberpunk, but, yeah, looks to be pretty graphics intensive. Probably going to need a 2080Super to max out that game.

    Then you also have the ever present question of "What comes next". AMD has Zen 3 coming out late 2020 which promise even more performance over Zen 2. AMD also has more GPUs coming. You also have DDR5 memory coming in another year or two. Nvidia has a new lineup of graphics cards coming this autumn (rumor only, so far, but very very likely). Waiting for DDR5 very likely not worth it, but for a better CPU or GPU? Might be worth it.

    Hope this helps.
     
  3. Feoffic

    Feoffic The Chosen One DLP Supporter

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    I agree with most of what Dansel said, except on the SSD. Most SSDs are basically equivalent with a few exceptions, so paying $125 for a 500 GB NVME Samsung drive doesn't make sense unless you have the money or the use case for it. Also, it's about $100 per TB of storage space on most SSDs these days, so $125 for just 500 GB ain't worth it.

    Anything recommended in this video on SATA SSDs and this one on NVME SSDs are worth considering (only caveat is the SATA SSD video is from 2017, so newer versions of those drives may exist). I'd personally go for the 500 GB Crucial MX500 as a boot and programs drive and a 1 TB NVME drive for games (either the Intel p660 or the ADATA XPG SX8200 Pro, which is functionally equivalent to the Samsung 970), with a 2TB Seagate Barracuda mechanical drive for document and other non-game storage. It definitely costs more than buying just the Samsung 970 500 GB, but I think it's worth it long term.
     
  4. Dansel

    Dansel First Year

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    Yeah, as mentioned in most cases the difference between a SATA SSD and an NVMe SSD is going to be very small. There are a couple of things you do want to keep in mind, though, depending on your circumstances[​IMG]

    Take a look at the image above. Depending on how the manufacturer implemented everything there are some things you want to be aware of. If you're going to be installing a lot of extra hardware relying on USB, PCIe slots; things like 10GB networking, raid cards, capture cards, USB webcams, etc, and you expect to run many of them simultaneously having your OS disk on dedicated PCIe lanes means you have less worry about saturating them, since otherwise everything is going to go through the 4x lane dedicated to the chipset.

    Very few people run into this issue, though.

    Beyond that: NVMe SSDs shine if you intend to do things like video editing of 4k material, and other high-bitrate content, where you can expect long sequential read/writes. In most other applications it performs like an ordinary, if very good, SSD. I did some benchmarking some time ago with a Samsung 970 Evo Plus 1tb (NVMe) vs a Samsung 860 Evo 250GB (SATA) and while these are a generation and a priceclass apart: boot+login improved by about ~10%. I find the other benefits valuable enough that I always go with NVMe SSDs, but it isn't for everyone.
     
  5. Eilyfe

    Eilyfe Chief Warlock

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    Okay, so I've been looking into things and got some more questions. First of all, though, thanks for all of your input, I appreciate it.

    The build so far looks like this:

    • Fractal Design R5
    • AMD Ryzen 5 3600 3.6 GHz
    • Corsair Vengeance LPX 16 GB DDR4-3200
    • Samsung 970 Evo 500 GB M.2-2280 NVME SSD (*1)
    • MSI Radeon RX 5700 XT 8 GB Gaming X Video Card
    • be quiet! Straight Power 11 650 W 80+ Fully Modular ATX Power Supply
    • Thermalright HR-02 Macho Rev.B

    (*1): I checked for current non NVME SSDs and the Samsung ones are barely any cheaper, mostly in the range of 10€ or so, so I don't think I'm going to save a lot here and can just go for the NVME variant. I also have a 120gb and another 240gb SSD from my current rig, as well as a 1TB mechanical drive.

    The big question, as should be obvious from the list, concerns the motherboard. The one @Dansel linked isn't available in Germany, and to be honest a X570 board, for all the advantages it has, really cuts deep into my budget. Without MB I'm already at ~930 €. I went looking for other alternatives like X470 or B450 boards, but I got somewhat intimidated by pc-part-picker calling out possible incompatabilities and bios hijinks regarding the Ryzen cpu and those boards.

    Honestly I'm not quite sure where to go from here. I need the installation process to be somewhat easy (and for it to be doable without access to internet until I can establish a connection in a browser to my dormitory LAN, since there's no wifi here). At the same time I can't really afford more than 200€ on a motherboard.

    (Two of the boards I was looking at are MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon AC and Asus ROG Stric X470-F Gaming, but PC part picker indicated possible trouble for both)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  6. Sacro

    Sacro Seventh Year

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    The incompatabilies shown are probably about older BIOS versions, but you can ignore that nowadays unless you're really really unlucky. The current default B450 board that gets recommended is more often than not the MSI Tomahawk MAX. Though be aware that next month B550 boards will come out on the 16th, and from what has been shown so far their feature set will be kind of nice, with many models coming with 2.5G Lan for example, and vast improvements in the VRM department. If you want to go x570, go for the Gigabyte Aorus Elite for 210€.

    If you can spare 20€ more on the RAM, go for Crucial Ballistix instead of the Corsair one, because the Micron E-Dies on there play very nicely with Ryzen. If it fits in your budget, go for the Nitro+ 5700XT, since this is pretty much the best model for the 5700XT. The Macho isn't really sold anymore here in Germany I think, so the Scythe Mugen 5 would be a good alternative, or the Arctic Liquid Freezer II 280 (or 240) if you want to go the AIO route.

    Keep in mind that more silent oriented cases like the Define R5 will produce higher temperatures in the components. If you'd rather have a more airflow oriented case, look at the Meshify C if you want to stick with Fractal, or many other mesh-front cases out there. (I recommend GamersNexus for case reviews).

    If you want some additional reading material, and some different opinions, take a look at Der ideale Gaming-PC.
     
  7. Eilyfe

    Eilyfe Chief Warlock

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    Thanks. The Fractal R5 and the Macho Rev are components I alrady have from my old rig which I plan to reuse.

    Edit: I looked into the Crucial and Nitro aspects. The GPU is no problem at all, barely 5-10€ more expensive. If I go with a cheaper MB, the 15-20€ for the Crucial RAM shouldn't be a problem either.

    When I put the Tomahawk into pc-part-picker the following note pops up: "The motherboard M.2 slot #1 shares bandwidth with SATA 6.0 Gb/s ports. When the M.2 slot is populated, two SATA 6.0 Gb/s ports are disabled."

    Is that anything to be concerned about that'll cause problems for me? Will I still be able to connect my other two SSD drives and my mechanical 1 TB drive?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  8. Dansel

    Dansel First Year

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    Happened to me just a couple of weeks ago, but yes, it should be rare. There is more too it than that though. Older AMD motherboards have 16MB of on onboard ROM for BIOS. The BIOS for Zen 3 CPUs is greater than 16MB. As a compromise AMD has promised to supply a revised BIOS for these boards where they have removed the code for older CPUs in order to fit the code for the newer ones, yet this means that you loose backwards compatibility. This is less of a problem because the only reason you'd need that old CPU would be if the new one broke, which is very rare.

    The big problem is that you're dependent on motherboard manufacturers to upgrade the BIOS for the older platforms, which I don't think everyone will do. Which is why I recommended a X570 board, since they have 32MB ROM and no compromises were necessary. Didn't think about the B550 boards but if they truly will be released this time waiting another month might really be the best choice.

    This means that those two ports and the M2 slot share PCIe lanes, and only one set can be used at once. I haven't looked at that specific board but there very likely is a bunch of other SATA ports connected to the chipset that will be available still.

    If the motherboard does break your budget buying a 400-series board might very well be the best choice, especially if you can ask around among friends and see if any of them have a Ryzen 1000 or 2000 series processor, since then you could in the worst case borrow that one, pop it into your motherboard, upgrade the BIOS, and then use you own CPU from that point.
     
  9. Eilyfe

    Eilyfe Chief Warlock

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    I made up my mind to wait for June in order to take a look at the B550 boards first (being two days after my birthday this also fits nicely with eventual cash injections). I'll likely revisit this thread and @ you when the time comes to make the final decision, and I'm in need of consultation again.

    Right now, though, the ROG STRIX B550-E Gaming looks sweet. I wonder what the price will be.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  10. Dansel

    Dansel First Year

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    Probably ~200 usd based on what the b450 strix gaming costs.