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Proving that Lord Potter is Canonically Impossible

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by momo, May 30, 2018.

  1. momo

    momo Fifth Year

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    I saw this scene brought up on the HPFF reddit today.

    "There's a scene when Harry asks Remus about the Half-Blood Prince and Remus explains that there are no princes in the wizarding world."

    Judging by the scenario of the conversation, we can use this scene to imply that there is nobility. So all the people basing Lord Potter of the "Sacred 26" or any other cannon are evidently wrong.

    Thought that would be something this site would like to see.
     
  2. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Eh? If there is no princes how is this confirmation there is nobility
     
  3. momo

    momo Fifth Year

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    I mean it's not a direct example but other than when the ruling class is mainly controlled by the nobility, I can't think of any example where there is a nobility because they would be essentially powerless.

    Sure you can have a wealthy class, but actual lords?

    And considering that the head of state is the minster of magic, that's not the case with the HP world.

    Obviously there is some logic involved, but the fact that there isn't royalty and that there is an elected head of state, along with a complex government system with different branches with different power (i.e. wizengamot), I find it highly unlikely that lordships exist in the HP world.
     
  4. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    @momo : You lacked a crucial word, there :p

    And yes, I agree. But of course FF doesn't have to stick to Canon. For better and worse.
     
  5. Palindrome

    Palindrome A bigger, darker mark Moderator DLP Supporter

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    I was trying to think of any canon mentions of nobility... And nearly missed the obvious. Why did Voldemort call himself a Lord?

    Apart from his love of anagrams, of course.
     
  6. momo

    momo Fifth Year

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    Perhaps to seem powerful by bloodline to his followers. I imagine that there were lords before the statue of secrecy and using that name makes it seem like he (Lv) has a strong, old bloodline.
     
  7. Kevizoid

    Kevizoid First Year

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    For any unknown number of reasons. Maybe Prince of Darkness was already taken? Without information on the subject, it's impossible to draw conclusions.
     
  8. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Well, we know that the Malfoy family holds a barony, because Pottermore tells us that they were awarded land by William the Conqueror for their role in the invasion of England. But importantly, this is not some magical system of nobility but just the regular, mostly defunct, Muggle one. Given the Muggle origin, it's no surprise that the Malfoys don't go around demanding everyone refer to them as Lord.
     
  9. Sorrows

    Sorrows Auror Prestige DLP Gold Supporter

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    Technically speaking, if they had a baronetcy he would be 'Sir Lucius' or 'Sir Lucius Malfoy.' Though Narcissa would be styled 'Lady Malfoy.' Guess Sir Lucius doesn't sound as impressive as Lord Malfoy.

    Plus Baronets don't count as Peers of the Realm so they are still dirty commoners.

    I think that Taure is right, if there is no magical monarchy then all titles are of muggle origin, though there is no reason a magical family could not be granted a title (especially since they are in the position to provide services otherwise impossible.) They might suggest a muggle connection or origin so not be desirable amongst purebloods.

    Then again Lupin only said there were no magical princes, He said nothing about magical Queens...
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  10. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I was referring to a barony, not a baronetcy. A barony would typically contain a number of different lands associated with various titles. The "baron" (which does not correspond to the later noble title of baron, as it is refers to a swathe of land ownership rather than a single title) would use the most senior title and grant the lower ones to people below them in the feudal chain.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  11. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    Well, a quick wiki-check says William the Conqueror was well before the Statute of Secrecy, so I'm sure the Malfoys could find a way to rationalize it without tainting themselves too much with muggle association. Maybe try to explain it away as being court wizards, with a bit of implication that they were the real power behind the throne...
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  12. Kevizoid

    Kevizoid First Year

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    I'm not sure the muggle baiting death eaters who avoided prison on a shoddy bribe filled technicality want to be hinting that their family has an awesome history of secretly controlling kingdoms. Gives it the ole bad imperio vibes.
     
  13. Sorrows

    Sorrows Auror Prestige DLP Gold Supporter

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    Barony's are all but defunct, they are not a part of the modern peerage system and were almost totally wiped out by the 1660s and are not recognized as peers or as a basis of succession. Life peers can still be Barons I think. I think in the England only one feudal baranocy exists still and its not attached to a family. I think there might be a few kicking around as courtesy titles given to the spawn of noble families. There are some more titles in Scotland that can be bought and sold since they are attached to land rather than bloodline.

    Of course all that happened after the Statute of Secrecy so the Malfoys could just ignore it.

    Strictly speaking Barons are not styled 'Lord' anyway since he is not a peer so he still would not be 'Lord Malfoy.'
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  14. Blorcyn

    Blorcyn High Inquisitor DLP Supporter DLP Silver Supporter

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    Almost all life peers are barons. Barons are the lowest rank of aristocracy and are addressed as Lord or lady same as all the rest, other than duke. Hereditary barons aren't common, mostly absorbed into higher titles like you say, but hereditary or life, they're still titled: list

    Are you thinking of baronets, which are hereditary sirs, not lords, and mostly defunct?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  15. apoc

    apoc The Once and Ginger King DLP Supporter

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    Knowledge is knowing whether or not nobility could be canon in the Wizarding World.

    Wisdom is knowing not to include it.
     
  16. Goten Askil

    Goten Askil Seventh Year

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    There are a few examples of wizards with titles: the Bloody Baron, Nearly-Headless Nick (Sir Nicholas of something), that other decapitated ghost (Sir Patrick thingy).

    According to some timeline JKR made for Pottermore (if you consider that canon, it's not on site anymore anyway), there were Queen witches in the Middle-Age, and one Lord Withers (1672-1769) that breeded flying horses. This last one is the only example I could find from after the Statute (and even that is debatable since he was born before).

    So there were wizards with nobility titles before the Statute but whether their descendants would still hold these titles should be asked to people more knowledgeable than I am in British law.

    In any case I agree with apoc here, adding nobility in a HP fanfic is useless. You already have blood purity if you want inequalities from birth, no need to copy the muggle system.
     
  17. Hawkin

    Hawkin Minister of Magic

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    Because he is a Dark Lord .

     
  18. theimmortalhp

    theimmortalhp Second Year

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    *The Dark Lord

    Came second not first I believe.
     
  19. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Your initial post was confusing as fuck. Which is why I posted the two quotes. In one you say that Remus says there are no Princes in the Wizarding world, and then you say that this confirms nobility.

    Your reply to my post did little to clarify.

    Unless I'm totally misreading all of this.
     
  20. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    @Zombie : Like I said, I suppose they simply missed the "no" in the second quote -- "no nobility".
     
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