Prophecies don't always come to pass. They are just information about a possible future.

What? You completely lost me.

 

Also, time-turners in JKR's universe form stable time loops (or, perhaps, co-exist with the propagation of stable time loops, but eh).

 

It's a massive leap of logic given that, as far as anyone knew, it'd never happened before.

How about this?

Lily triggered some rare magic (true) and she and Voldemort killed each other in a mutual takeout (kinda true). Harry's got a curse scar because he got caught in the back-splash (lie).

This isn't what happened, but if I were AD, this is the story I would have been shouting from the rooftops. Given the way he is perceived, he might have made it stick.

 

Topic: something that's larger on the inside than the outside.

Problem: certain forms of logic deny the above is possible, but those forms are based on linear, mathematical models, i.e. Aristotelian linear logic. A + B = C.

There are other forms of logic that take other routes to the problem. For instance, Platonic logic speaks of a world of forms and shadowlands, and what's in the shadowland is but a replica of what's in the world of forms. So if you're in the replica, which is just a shadow of what is real, and step into the world of forms, you step into a much larger world, a more real world.

Applying that to the HP world, it's not necessarily a world of forms, but rather, think of the enlargened space as an alternate reality that you step into everytime you enter it. It does not change the way time moves or anything else, but it is an alternate space. C.S. Lewis plays off this theme very heavily in The Last Battle, where an entire world after is all contained in a shed, but it's not just a shed, it's an alternate universe, just as the Narnia universe was an alternate universe to our world's universe.

I'll leave it at that, unless you want to move into a discussion on narrative logic.

EDIT: prophecies always come to pass. Those that don't, are called false prophecies. The only other type that would not, are those that are contingent on corrective actions (i.e. if you don't change your path, this and this will happen). So any true prophecy is either (1) The future, or (2), contingent upon current actions as part of the prophecy declared.

 

There's nothing in that quote to indicate that the time traveler becomes some sort of radioactive anomaly whose every action unravels time. While it's all very nice that you can point to canon (well, as canon as Pottermore can get), none of it applies, here. In this scenario, Harry's consciousness travels back in time once and then stays there. He obviously made the trip in one piece, so there's no consequence there. And, any unraveling of time inherent in that scenario is done the instant he arrives... and none was mentioned. There's nothing there to indicate that any subsequent actions Harry takes are any more or less dangerous than ones Dumbledore takes using Harry's information from the future.

It simply comes down to Dumbledore making a high-handed, unilateral, decision to effectively kill a man by removing his memories, because he thinks he has the wisdom to make these decisions without any counsel, the power to do so without being stopped, and the right to decide how people's lives should be lived and ended.

That sounds dangerously like "might makes right" masquerading as "with great power comes great responsibility."

Horse shit.

The only way to protect Harry was to stick him with the Dursleys, specifically Petunia? And, who was looking for him? Not Voldemort, because he was disembodied. Not the Lestranges or Crouch Jr., because they were in Azkaban, as was Sirius (since they assumed he would want Harry dead - despite the fact that he had Harry in his arms, unharmed, when Hagrid arrived, oy vey). So... the heavy hitters are out of the picture, and we're protecting Harry from the leftovers, who believe that Voldemort is dead and gone, so they probably weren't actively looking for Harry, even if they previously would have been so inclined.

On the other hand, Hermione protected Harry from Voldemort, the Lestranges, all the other death eaters, the snatchers, any collaborators among Wizarding law enforcement, and presumably Umbridge, with a tent and five protection spells that took a minute to cast, none of which included the Fidelius or any blood protection, while all of the aforementioned parties were actively and vigorously searching for Harry.

Tony Stark could have done it in a cave with a box of scraps.

Clearly Petunia wasn't even close to being the only way to protect Harry, and she probably wasn't even the best. Harry had to suffer for the plot, sure, but that doesn't change how these things reflect on Dumbledore.

The only thing that, canonically, would have screwed the pooch is telling Harry that if he died willingly, he might be able to come back. That's it. Even telling him ahead of time that he was a horcrux wouldn't necessarily have botched things.

Still, even if we accept that those two things had to be kept a secret, there are a slew of other things Harry could have been told. Sirius's death could have been completely avoided, for one thing.

And, what gives him that right?

Nothing, except, "Who's gonna fucking stop me?" You clearly missed the point that it was morally wrong to mess with someone's memories like that, simply deleting whole swaths of their life. But, you're cool with the idea that if someone has enough power (however you choose to define it) they implicitly have carte blanche to exert that power over others in whatever manner they choose. Fine. We don't have to agree on that point, but don't pretend like "because Dumbledore can if he so chooses" is the factually correct answer, because it is not.

I also don't have to agree with your notion that Harry's memories are a 'disease' or 'malady' of some sort that Dumbledore has the duty and god-given right to 'correct.' We just keep coming back around to your insistence that if Dumbledore says so, it has to be right, and since he has the divine right to do as he please, that's that.

Of course, you're not saying he's infallible, just the least fallible... according to you. And, since he doesn't tell anyone what he's doing, there's no one there to say 'no' or call him on the liberties he takes (liberty he takes for himself and from others), so who's going to stop him - and, if they catch him, do they even have the power to stop him?

Your words, not mine.

I've said he's high-handed; self righteous; arrogant; a semi-reformed wizard supremacist who believed in the need for 'benevolent wizard rule' over muggles; manipulative (just because a lot of people have said so, then taken it to ridiculous extremes in fan fic does not make it any less true); seeks only his own counsel, believing himself to be the only one capable of handling the events of the story; and flat out ignores the counsel of others.

I did not say he was evil.

A lack of imagination/insight on your part does not constitute an incorrect assertion on my part.

And, now, I shall flee this derail before the mods come to carry me away.

 

I have a few thematically-related questions for your consideration.

1. Suppose there's a Muggleborn who exemplifies the virtues of Slytherin (other than respecting blood purity). During the time of the Harry Potter novels, would the Sorting Hat place said Muggleborn in that house?

1.1. Let's further suppose that this affinity with the virtues of Slytherin (again, excepting blood purity) is so strong that this Muggleborn would seem mismatched in any other house. How heavily would this strong affinity weigh in the Sorting Hat's decision, when measured against the prejudice and difficulty this Muggleborn would predictably face in Slytherin?

1.2. Consider that a Muggleborn wouldn't necessarily appreciate the depth of the prejudice some (most?) Slytherins have against 'mudbloods', and so wouldn't necessarily voice as strong objections to being placed there as Harry did. Would the Sorting Hat factor this ignorance into its decision?

2. Suppose the Muggleborn was placed in Slytherin. How would he or she be treated within that house?

2.1. Consider the range of approaches the Muggleborn might take, for instance: endeavouring to be 'invisible'; being meek and subservient; trying to negotiate a co-existence with the blood purists; sucking up to the blood purists; emulating the blood purists; talent permitting, showing off academically à la Hermione; openly defying or scorning the prejudice.

2.2. Bear in mind a disadvantage this Muggleborn would have in comparison to someone like Tom Riddle, who would on first glance also appear to be Muggleborn. Tom Riddle could plausibly argue for his ancestral connection to Salazar Slytherin, given his Parseltongue ability. My hypothetical Muggleborn couldn't do the same.

2.3. A further complication: even if this Muggleborn was very talented, and thus dangerous to cross (at least during his or her final years at Hogwarts), the situation is not the same as it was for Tom Riddle. Outside of Hogwarts, the blood purity party is still going strong and has significant political power. So, if this Muggleborn attempted to cow his or her fellow Slytherins by some demonstration of superior magical skill, as Tom Riddle might have done, there would inevitably be some repercussions of such an approach, especially considering the inevitable tension with the political realities of the outside world.

I would greatly appreciate any answers you might have.

 

Tom Riddle was a Orphan, and quite possibly a muggle-born (for all anyone knew at the time). So yes, I think they can go into Slytherin.

 

Yes, I agree, but presumably the pure-blood prejudice against muggle-borns wasn't quite as strong back then as it was during Harry Potter's years at Hogwarts. While it probably was there, and was a significant factor, I don't think it unreasonable to assume that Voldemort might fanned the flames of Muggle and mudblood hatred further, making it stronger than during his Hogwarts years. Furthermore, might it not be possible that the Sorting Hat sensed that Tom Riddle was a Parselmouth, and therefore quite likely a descendant of Salazar, which would of course make him exceptionally suited to be in Slytherin?

I guess what I'm asking is whether the Sorting Hat takes changing political and social circumstances into consideration when it makes its choice.

 

I don't quite remember how come Lucius and the rest of the merry bunch got out of being tested with Veritaserum, while Sirius was sent off without even a trial to Azkaban. Is this elaborated upon in the books or via Pottermore info-dumps?

 

Sirius went mad and never denied the charges, so I guess no ever really bothered about him.

 

And I'm guessing purebloods could have bribed their way out of Veritaserum, though this is pure speculation.

@Daidalos:

Assuming that the Hat works as stated in its first song in PS, it Sorts people based on what character traits they exibit, or perhaps which one dominates over the others, so I'm guessing it doesn't give a shit whther you're pureblood or not. If it did, one might argue that if the Hat takes a person's being a muggleborn into consideration, and if you want to associate houses with certain 'blood-status' groups, why wouldn't the Hat look at purebloods from this angle as well? If we point fingers at Slytherin as the place for purebloods, then what are people like Ron and Neville doing in Gryffindor? Of course, you could say that their bravery supersedes their blood-status, but I really think the Hat just goes: brave? Gryffindor. Ambitious? Slytherin. And so on.

TLDR: your ambitious, cunning muggleborn would go to Slytherin.

As for your second question (and subpoints). If your muggleborn is smart, he/she would take whatver approach would make the most sense. If they felt they could carve a place for themselves, why not? Their modus operandi would depend on what kind of person they are/what kind of character you're writing. Shoving every Slytherin muggleborn into one category is like saying all Death Eaters come from Slytherin. It's an all-or-nothing statement and blocks flexibility. And besides, I think the best story to read would be a combination of all - see how the muggleborn progresses from keeping out of everyone's way to sucking up to them and finally coming into their own.

You can't compare muggleborns to Riddle. Yes, he might not have known that he wasn't actually a muggleborn at the beginning of his Hogwarts career, but he did find out later. Such a change of status wouldn't occur for your muggleborn, if a muggleborn is what they are. And I mean, come on, it's Tom motherfucking Riddle.

Lastly, if your muggleborn intimidated his/her peers in school, that could indeed put them in line of sight of people like, say, Lucius, but if the muggleborn is smart, they'd find a way to either counter the cross parents of their classmates or they'd whole ass back to muggle world and use their magical skills to become richer than Rupert Murdoch and generally go through life like a baws. (yeah, that last one is what I would've done)

 

@Scott Press
Thank you for your response.

I'd just like to note that it's not so much bloody purity in itself which is the issue, but the importance that people attach to it. So, the Weasleys are pure-bloods, but they aren't pure-blood supremacists, so they don't go into Slytherin. In contrast, most of the Blacks are both pure-bloods AND fanatical about maintaining their blood purity, thus they fit right at home in Slytherin.

 

Kind of makes me wonder what made Sirius and Andromeda turn out different from the rest of their families.

 

*whispers* They fell in with the wrong crowd, they did.

 

I can help you there.

 

You've lost me. Help with what?

 

That'd be a bit impossible, since Sirius was apparently not quite liked by his mad old mother even before Hogwarts. Or maybe I'm mixing up fanon and canon again.

 

Lolwut? That's blatantly moving the goalposts. Also, totally not canon. There are many prophecies which didn't happen.

 

"You’ll soon find out that some wizarding families are much better than others, Potter. You don’t want to go making friends with the wrong sort. I can help you there."

 

Yes. You are very much right, sir. Also, I'd be delighted. May the Dark Side win.