On this point, I believe there is an potential plot hole.

JKR has said that the only Death Eater capable of casting the Patronus Charm is Snape. She has also said that Death Eaters don't really need to cast the charm, as they and Dementors are of like nature. This is kind of consistent with the Dementors joining Voldemort. However, I think there's also ample reason for Death Eaters to want to be able to cast the charm (never mind if they are capable of doing so).

Consider: Barty Crouch, a Death Eater if ever there was one, was kissed by a Dementor on Fudge's orders. Suppose Croush was conscious; would the Dementor have refused Fudge's order to deliver the Kiss to Crouch? This seems very unlikely to me. If the Dementor didn't refuse, I think Crouch would very much like to be able to cast the Patronus Charm, seeing as no other spells allegedly affect Dementors. The same goes for all the Death Eaters tormented by Dementors in Azkaban.

So, there really must be some other way to control/defend against Dementors, or every dark wizard in the world would piss themselves with terror even at the mention of the abominations.

 

The only defence. Nothing is stated about an offence. Or on the subject of dementors being resistant to being ground to dust, disintegration or temperatures over thousand degrees of whatever scale. Any of those non-magical effects could be achieved through magic and with a bit of effort could stay non-magical.
And nothing was stated on the subject of dementors being resistant to extremely destructive magical substances. Hmm, a win-win situation: if they are resistant you could douse a dementor with it and sic it upon your foes.

--------------
If it feels, it lives.
If it lives, you can kill it.
If it is still alive, you're not trying.

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Daidalos:
I think that Voldemort certainly does know how to dispose of dementors, just in case the Ministry sends them after him, but at the point of the book seven he doesn't really needs to. They were granted free food, lots of it. Why should they try to bite the hand that feeds? Besides, happy or good human souls are tastier than vile and wicked. They do not care for the vile humans much, but they do care for the free food and lack of Patroni shoved up their rotten arses that comes from such alliance.

 

You're using a logical fallacy to try and shoe-horn in a way to kill Dementors. We're told repeatedly that the only defence against Dementors is the Patronus Charm. That is the evidence we're given in regards to fighting Dementors and because nothing else is mentioned, even later in the series when the tone turned a lot darker, it is much preferable to assume that it's because there is no other way to fight them.

Then again, the Killing Curse is supposed to be unblockable and unaided flight was unknown until Voldemort developed a means of doing it. Perhaps there is a way to destroy Dementors but it just hasn't been discovered yet.

Either way it makes no difference to the canon timeline.

 

Rubbish. Wizards believe many stupid things. We've been told repeatedly that Patronus Charm is most difficult and complicated kind of magic. But it requires nothing more than a happy memory and a bit of practice. Harry, who for all his virtues sadly is farthest from being a smart character, had nonetheless been able to teach it to a bunch of prepubescent kids and slightly older brats from his club.
That says everything we need to know about those that claim that the Patronus Charm is the only thing that could affect a dementor. I'll bet that none of those 'experts' is capable of invoking and controlling elemental constructs, casting a Killing Curse or glancing into someone's mind. Aside from Snape and Dumbledore, but they never claimed such thing, did they?

I'll repeat, Dementors are not eternal, not unbreakable nor intangible. And even if they were, there are ways to destroy items that were charmed unbreakable and malevolent spirits. They can not vanish in flames and be reborn somewhere like the Phoenix can. And for all their sinister appearance they are not the powers that be, manifestations of essential force of magical nature nor supreme beings like the Death is.

 

I don't know where you're getting half of this stuff from.

Harry may not have been a brilliant wizard like Dumbledore or Voldemort, but he was very good at Defence Against the Dark Arts. It's the one class that he consistently excelled at, even beyond what Hermione could achieve. He also spent the better part of a year devoting free time to learning the Patronus Charm and even then required some time travel to trick himself into the confidence form a corporeal one.

On top of that is the fact that pretty much every single adult he meets is astounded that he can cast it. It is a very difficult spell, but Harry is particularly gifted at that type of magic. He's also a good teacher, knows the theory and practice behind the magic he uses most often and is able to convey that to others in a way they understand. They spent the best part of a year practising it as well, so it's not as though everyone got it on the first try.

I'm also wondering how that relates to the spell itself being the only thing able to affect Dementors. Just because Harry was able to teach it to people doesn't make it any less potent a spell. It just means that he and the DA spent long enough practising that they eventually became good enough to use it. I'd be rather more surprised if they didn't manage to at least cast it by the end of OotP.

You're ascribing wizards a general incompetence that, while largely accurate in JKR's storytelling (Young Adult literature practically requires an incompetent older generation to work), doesn't take into account the fact that magic is really fucking hard. The people we see excelling at it are those who would already be brilliant without magic; the creative types like Fred & George, the academics like Hermione, the strong willed like Harry and the natural born geniuses like Dumbledore, Snape and Voldemort.

Finally, Dementors are definitely not immortal, otherwise they'd have overrun the planet by now. I just don't think they can be killed by a spell. If I had to pick a method of killing Dementors I'd probably go with it being a reverse of the way they are born; if the morale/happiness of a given area goes up, Dementors start to wither away. Or perhaps they can starve to death, which is why they're generally happy to stay in Azkaban; free meals.

EDIT: Just noticed the tags. Cute.

 

I mentioned that Patronus Charm requires practice. And no, difficulty of the charm rarely correlates to its overall potency. Talent, skill and experience of the caster will affect produced results in this case. The fact that Harry managed to teach it to many kids stands as a proof both for those older wizards ineptitude and Harry excellence as an instructor. Though for the latter I'll give proximity credit to Moody Crouch drills and teaching methods.

JKR took the lazy way. Imagine how better as a minor character would have been a smooth and cunning Lockhart that wouldn't have been revealed until the very last moment when all little reader's hopes would've been on him instead of the obvious fraudulent idiot. Educative, too.
There is no need to make adults useless idiots when you can add sublime deterring complications, conflicts of interests and bigger problems that would otherwise occupy both helpful and malevolent adult characters at necessary moment. Which JKR tried to do, albeit quite badly.

OWL magical studies aren't hard. Easier than sciences of an equal level. NEWTs could be, but we hadn't seen much of them. Every spell can be perfected trough persistent practice, even if you lack any semblance of talent. There is no inborn limit on what a wizard could accomplish. Most wizards can't be buggered to apply even a barest effort though, so yes, talented children go farther.
Snape wasn't a genius. He is an example of a bright and hard-working child that had grown up in a hostile environment. I knew one once, now he's dead too. They tend to mix into the bad crowd.

 

I think I remember JKR stating that Dementors cannot die. Combined with the mention of them breeding, this would just mean Dementors fucking everywhere as Aekiel mentioned. What I always imagined happening is that, when people are collectively happier, the individual Dementors 'shrink' or lose strength and coalesce into fewer beings while never disappearing entirely. As they are meant to represent depression, it makes perfect sense - they also 'feed' on misery by amplifying shitty thoughts while suppressing happy ones. Voldemort doesn't need any special magic defense, the Dementors love the fucking guy, he makes pretty much everyone's lives completely miserable. Archie, you said (despite canon consistently saying the complete and total opposite) that Patronuses can't be that difficult - even if that were true, casting a spell based on happy thoughts to ward off the physical and magical manifestation of depression itself (i.e. actual Dementors) would be immensely difficult. If not, you could cure someone with severe depression by telling them to just cheer up. Harry's strength of character and determination to live a happy, fulfilling, virtuous life despite being crapped on his whole life is the whole fucking theme of the books - not a plot hole.

 

Nocturnesthesia:
Dementors, inferi, boggarts, geists and arguably lethifolds are unable to die as they are not exactly living beings to begin with. But they can perish still, and if I do recall correctly unlike boggarts dementors multiply and not just appear in depressive magical places, so it is possible to get rid of them once and for all.

Depression is a laughable malady of the prisoners, broken tools and fools with excess of free time. Any man or woman with inoperable problems of cancerous, cardiac or neural kind would happily trade them for strongest kind of depression if that at all were possible. And it is easily curable with appropriate medication or a bit of travel.

I do agree that children lead a happy and careless life and thus are better suited for Patronus training and could be far more successful at it.

 

That is the exposition fairy of canon and is never contradicted. And also the literal mountains of circumstantial evidence throughout the entire series. And literally the entire foreword of Fantastic Beasts, which was written by Dumbledore.

Don't confuse being illogical with being uncreative. Wizards have little to no common sense, though the why is up for debate. That has no bearing whatsoever on their creativity, however.

What the fuck makes you think they don't? And why are you apparently under the impression that everyone in the world can cast the Patronus, when we're flat-out told by Lupin that there are loads of adult wizards who flat-out cannot, and that most people who can cast it never progress past the silver mist stage?

From his ass, it would seem. I don't want to be the person who pulls the dick move, Archie, but I'm going to have to ask you to start citing your source whenever you claim something. Chapter, preferably page as well. You are literally reciting fanfiction conventions to defend your beliefs, and it's fucking irritating to watch.

 

I propose that we stop arguing about dementor mortality and start arguing about plotholes. like this one:
In book 2, we learn that Lucius 'threatened to curse their [board of governer's] famalies if they didn't agree to suspend me [dumbledore] in the first place.' Lucius blackmailed people. Fred and George state that that is illegal in the wizarding world during book 4. So why didn't anything happen due to that?
note: quote is in book 2, chapter 18, kidle location 4880 (kindle doesn't have page numbers)

 

Because he's richer than God and the Minister of Magic sucks his dick. That's not a plot hole.

 

Raine, nobody here cities their statements even if they reek of bullshit, why the fuck should I cite facts that can be easily found by interested parties by rereading the scene in question?

I'll point them to you for the sake of clarity, even if it will be stupid waste of entire paragraph. Shield and fight argument follows the Atrium duel, most simple looked-up proof of conjuration Charm would be Aquamenti, description of Patronus Charm was in third book. Desires of dementor population are scattered through books but straight enough for everyone to remember. Purpose and exact effect of Horcruxes was covered in sixth book at Dumbledore's lessons. Failure of the Killing Curse, Voldemort possession abilities and that AK, while deadly, never destroys the body or soul are widely known facts.

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Dementor and eye protection arguments do not have any factual book confirmation for either side and like the subjects of flight and surviving the Killing Curse were bloated from an example of wizarding beliefs that are likely wrongful.
So, for the record, I am dutifully forced to oppose the side of the wizarding ignorance and protect the side of the possibility, if only because it was a part of aforementioned example. Until Rowling makes definite statement on the subject or, in case of dementors, someone in expanded canon tries and utterly fails to destroy a dementor thus making dementor bodies one of if not the most resilient thing in Potterverse I shall assume that a possibility of dementor destruction exists.

 

Considering I either regret or second guess nearly every decision I make, it's really...freeing to know I made one recently that has done nothing but save me grief.

Better make sure the nationality and edition is included with the chapter and page, just for clarity's sake (they change from edition to edition, after all).

 

Archie. I will not try to argue with you in this thread. But I do want you to answer one question: where is the PLOT HOLE that you are talking about? This is 'the real HP plotholes thread', not the 'arguments about magical theory' thread. Start talking about plot holes or shut up. Or start a new thread so we can argue about magical theory without derailing this thread. Whichever works best. Just please stop arguing about magic here.
I can't be bothered to think about a lame 'not really a plot hole' plot hole to get this thread back on the rails. I just hope this thread doesn't crash and burn.

 

readerboy7, it had started from the DADA curse, or to be precise, from the reason Tom hadn't used such magic anywhere else. On the DMLE heads or Dumbledore for example. And then it rolled into things that others decided to pick on and I decided to respond to. I tried to stop it, but failed as it seems.

Speaking of...

Warlocke, why do you feel the need to write about yourself here? Do your thing silently and move on. Oh wait, here's that list. Now it's better. Thanks.

---------- Post automerged at 02:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 AM ----------

On the subject of DADA curse so far we have an explanation from Taure that assumes that "Voldemort was so pissed at being rejected that the job became cursed automatically", but at the same time he was quite insistent that the curse wasn't accidental magic. I do not know how it supposed to work or why Riddle, who knew that Dumbledore won't ever hire him, was pissed enough for accidental magic, sorry, automatic curse of such power to happen, but it is better than nothing.

 

I could start citing everything I've said so far in this thread. I simply don't, because it's not expected. The books are literally within ten feet of me right now, and I promise you, I have most of the important bits, like Dumbledore's rant about why prophecies are bullshit and how this one only matters because Voldemort believes it's true, memorized precisely for people like you who can't differentiate between canon and fannon.

I can cite literally everything I have said, and find support for most things other people have said trying to convince you otherwise.

Can you say the same? Can you cite anything to support the idea that Dementors can be killed, or that an obviously solid object that has been conjured through magic should not be able to block the Killing Curse when a magically projected shield fails? Do you have anything besides conjecture, fanon, asspulls, and assumptions about things we don't know to support your arguments? Can you actually cite anything of worth?

Because I sure can. Bloomsbury Live Chat, July 30th, 2007 full transcription.

I did you a favor and copy-pasted the bit about Dementors.

There you go. Writ in stone, non-negotiable, Dementors cannot be destroyed, period, end of discussion. And given the implication in DH that the Killing Curse attacks or severs the soul directly, this same source even provided us with a possible why: they do not have souls, thus, the Killing Curse, if it attacked the soul directly or otherwise severed it from the body, would logically have no effect on them.

Before you start crying bullshit and saying you shouldn't be bothered to cite facts anybody can find, maybe you should stop and do that yourself for a little bit, because you're obviously running off of fanonically tainted memory and not anything official that you've read recently.

Also, the primary reason nobody cites anything in this thread is because people aren't screaming "bullshit" at claims or allegations that have been made by others, mostly because these are tired and rehashed arguments and most of us are already familiar with the materials, quotes, and sources being discussed. If people started doing that, then citations would appear. Like now, for instance.

Archie, this is a thread about plot holes in the canon. If all you have is hypothetical conjecture on the nature of magic as it's depicted in fan fiction and trying to find plot holes in things other people have said and not the canon itself, then kindly shut the fuck up until you can actually contribute to the discussion.

 

I'm certainly not assuming that everyone in the world can cast the Patronus. I was simply commenting on JKR saying that even if death eaters could cast the charm, they wouldn't want to, since their natures are in alignment with the Dementors, thus obviating the need to use the spell in the first place. This is problematic, in my opinion, because we have ample evidence of death eaters being tormented/Kissed by Dementors in canon; they would certainly want some defence against the beasts, I reckon.

Let's consider, just for the sake of argument, a situation where Voldemort is trapped in a room with a Dementor. Fudge has commanded the abomination to Kiss the Dark Lord, but Fudge himself has wisely ensconced himself elsewhere, safe and sound. Let's assume there are anti-apparition jinxes in place and all that. Would the Dementor carry out the minister's command, or would the beast refuse and ally itself with the Dark Lord on the spot?

(Take into consideration that Dementors have Kissed/tormented death eaters in the past. Were they not sufficiently evil or what have you to stay the Dementor's lips?)

 

It's also implied that some people can't cast it simply because they lack the means to do so. Umbridge was only able to manage it because she was wearing the locket at the time. Snape, the only Death Eater that was shown to have a heart conflicted between good and evil, was also the only Death Eater who could manage the Patronus, and Rowling has noted that he never used it in front of other Death Eaters for fear that it would give him away.

Above and beyond the skill level required to cast it, there is an implication that people of particularly cruel or wicked demeanor cannot use the spell. That they are unable to do so, possibly for similar reasons to why the Cruciatus cannot be fueled by righteous anger.

 

Where the hell did you read this and why do you attribute such statement to me? Do tell me please who in canon conjured solid objects to block the Killing Curse for that matter, as I can not quite remember such feat, and you proclaimed yourself knowledgeable in canon matters.

Thanks. My bad, I was wrong on this subject. Though she had not explained if their bodies are completely indestructible(and even then you can simply chunk them through the Veil or use other powerful artefact) or there is other reason for their continued existence. What relation Killing Curse has to eradication of dementors? It won't work on non-living targets. I was of the opinion that their bodies are disposable through variety of means that work for other living dead.

Speaking of Killing Curse, I have a few questions that you may be able to answer. They are not exactly a plothole, but they may be considered an hole of contradiction.
Moody had been able to legally use the Killing Curse on several small spiders. What exactly wizarding law says about the use of the Killing Curse on non-human targets? Is it possible to successfully perform the Curse on the beast of the known wizard killer category? If so, why those beasts cause so much fear and distress, in some cases require over one hundred of wizards to get rid of(Nundu) and in the others considered almost unkillable(Chimaera)?

 

You'll note that I didn't claim that Death Eaters could use the Patronus Charm. I have no problem accepting that certain peoples' natures precludes them from using the spell. And this is a problem, for the reasons previously mentioned.

Since Death Eaters have been victims of Dementors in the past, I think it's only natural to assume that they would WANT a defence against them. This defence cannot be the Patronus Charm, because they are too evil to use it. So, how can the Death Eaters in canon control the abominations? Is it only the promise of a greater feasting on happy thoughts in the Dark Lord's employ that motivates them? In which case Death Eaters can only reliably control Dementors when they can deliver on that promise, which they would only be able to do if they were in power; in situations when they aren't in power, such as the situation with Crouch, they would be screwed.

Another scenario for your consideration. A group of Death Eaters are confined to some location; they have their wands, but they are prevented from fleeing. The Ministry orders Dementors to move in and Kiss the lot; do the Death Eaters have any means of defending themselves, or preventing the Dementors from Kissing them?