Let's go back and check the replay footage then, shall we?

Mmm, nope. Sorry, but I'm not seeing it. Butters wasn't putting his faith in Harry to pull a rabbit out of his hat.

The most that could possibly be said is that Butters chose to believe that something might happen in the time he could buy, but that's not really what I would call truly having faith.

He was walking out there to die, and expecting nothing to come of it. Again, it's incredibly courageous of him to basically sacrifice his own life simply because he felt it was the right thing to do. Walking to your death because it's the morally and ethically upstanding thing to do is bravery far beyond the pale. But again, it takes more than that to qualify as a Knight of the Cross.

The most you could stretch out of this is that Butters chose to sacrifice his life to protect the sanctity of an Archangel, believing that something might happen in the time he could buy.

I could maybe see him becoming a Knight out of that, maybe, though it's a bit of a stretch. The sword getting fixed and becoming a Knight, though?

Ehhhh.

The only way this works is if the swords are really, really easy to fix if they're broken (i.e. all that's necessary is for someone that qualifies as a Knight to touch them), which is kind of bullshit, but I suppose there's a sort of sense to it if you want to argue that the coins always find a way back into circulation, or if you choose to believe Harry's theory about blood is the only thing that matters, and that the swords will light up for anybody that's descended from certain holy royal bloodlines. And I refuse to believe that blood alone is the only deciding factor, because that's bullshit. These are Holy Weapons we're talking about, with capital letters. If it was really that easy, the Nicodemus would have shoved coins into some of the descendants of those kings and gotten them to misuse the swords deliberately a long time before now. I flat-out refuse to accept that there is a purely mechanical activation for an inherently spiritual process.

So I suppose what we should take away from this is that the swords will find a way to get back into the fight at the slightest provocation, much like the coins themselves will. And I'll grant you that does make some degree of sense, but it's still kind of eh.

Ah, but are you sure that was confirmed? Are you?

Because last time I checked, that was Butters theory.

As Harry has pointed out more than once, there are things about magic and the supernatural world that Bob inherently cannot understand, because he's a spirit of logic, reason, and memory, and not everything is grounded in those three principles. There are things outside of his ability to understand, and certain types of power, particularly things like faith, operate on a completely different wavelength from him. And Butters, in spite of being aware of the paranormal and even adopting some magician's tricks into his vigilante arsenal, always tends to view things from a purely scientific and biological standpoint, which makes sense, seeing how he's a mortician. Butters always makes theories and ideas based on a scientific bias, and Bob always makes theories and ideas based on a purely mechanical view of magic.

Butters thinks the Winter Knight mantle is nothing more than removing limiters combined with a subtle cocktail of morphine and testosterone. Harry, however, expressly noted in this very book that while Butters may be on to something, he doesn't think Butter's theory is completely correct.

I happen to agree with Harry on this one, because there's a lot of evidence that points in favor of it. Think back on how many times we've actually seen ice magic deployed by somebody. Think all the way back. Make a list.

We saw Lloyd Slate do something approximating it. We've seen Maeve do it. We've seen Harry do it constantly ever since Changes. We've Winder Sidhe do it. And we've seen Mab do it.

See the pattern? Winter Knight. Winter Lady. Winter Knight. Winter Fairies. Winter Queen.

Now remove all influence of Winter Sidhe from the picture. How many times has ice magic been used, total, by everyone we've ever seen?

There was Harry creatively using fire to remove heat from the pavement and create a snap-freeze sheet of ice to trip up Eldest Fetch. And I think one of the Babby's First Spells Harry showed Molly involved ice or cold of some sort.

That's it, as far as I can remember. Twice, we've seen it done. And one of those times, it wasn't even ice magic that was employed. It was creative use of fire to control thermal distribution.

Pardon me for saying so, but I DON'T THINK IT'S A FUCKING COINCIDENCE that every prolific instance of ice magic has invovled Winter fairies of some sort, and that Harry has suddenly started using ice as his primary weapon of choice ever since he became the Winter Knight.

Maybe it's deliberate. Maybe being the Winter Knight makes ice magic come much, much easier to you. Or maybe it's something that he hasn't even noticed yet, a sort of subtle influencing like when Mab robbed him of his memories involving calling fire. As the Winter Knight, he may not even realize that he's eschewing fire to make ice his main weapon.

Either way, there's obviously a difference here that isn't purely a biological and hormonal one.

Do I think the mantle is at least partially biological and hormonal? Oh yeah. You bet I do. Look back at Harry's fairy godmother, Lea. He asked to be 'strong enough to face DuMorne.' What did she give him? A psychological edge. She didn't actually grant him any power. Why?

Obviously, because he didn't specifically ask for that. Making bargains with fairies is like making wishes in Dungeons & Dragons. It always follows the path of least resistance, within the boundaries set by your request. Harry didn't ask for 'more magical power' or 'new magical knowledge,' so he didn't get any.

And all Winter Sidhe are, fundamentally, the same. What Lea does, Mab is also probably liable to do, given similar circumstances.

What's the most dangerous thing in the world to Mab?

The Winter Knight. The single most dangerous thing to one of the Queens is their own Knight. The Knights wield a power that is part of the Queen's own essence, which is a thing against which they have no defense.

So what do you think Mab is going to make absolutely certain she cannot be threatened by?

Her Knight.

How would she go about doing that?

By letting them believe they have superpowers, when they actually just have a facsimile of them. You aren't invincible, you just can't feel pain. You aren't that much stronger than you should be, it's just been made to look that way. You don't bounce back as fast as you do on your own; you do it because you are healed by your Queen.

The Winter Knight does have real power, Butters is wrong about that. We've seen the real power for it ourselves. Knowledge you didn't possess before, instincts you didn't have, affinities for the elements of winter.

But part of it, a big part of it, is just smoke and mirrors, psychology and some really good drugs, because that's how the Sidhe play the game. We've seen it before. We're seeing it now. I promise you we'll see it again before this is all over with.

Mab isn't going to allow the creation of a weapon that can kill her and then give them anything more than the most basic bare bones she can get away with giving them in accordance with the letter of the law.

Ah, but what if you disagree? It's all well and good to say the Winter Knight is 30% supernatural empowerment and 70% bullshit, but you don't really see it that way?

You don't think the Mantle itself isn't a manipulation of Mabs, you say?

Then riddle me this. Where is Harry's blasting rod?

You know. That thing he uses to call fire.

Where is it? There aren't any tools or materials on the island he could use to easily replicate things like his kinetic knuckles or his shield bracelet, sure. But his blasting rod is no more complicated than his staff is. Arguably less so, actually. It's a piece of wood with carvings in it that Harry puts enchantments on. It doesn't need any exotic materials. It just needs wood, wood carving tools, and time.

Harry had all three of those.

So where is his blasting rod, then? Why did he make a staff, but NOT make a new rod?

It's almost like it somehow slipped his mind or something. Like he hasn't even thought about using it or making a new one.

Gee. I wonder. Why. That. Could be.

There's more to it than hormones and painkillers, I promise you that. Harry thinks Molly is in dire peril. He still hasn't realized just how much danger he is in.

It's not the manipulation you see that's dangerous. It's the one you don't.

And to think, some people on this site actually believe Mab is just a grumpier Elsa. You fucks make me sick.

 

I dunno. I never really got the feeling that this was properly acknowledged. For example, at the end when Butters is visiting Murphy, he is basically bragging about how he made Nicodemus flee and so on, and then shows off his new "lightsaber". At no point does he say "I am sorry I got you hurt" to Murphy. Now we can speculate that he said it offscreen, but speculation is all we have.

Infact in the entire book, I don't think there is a single scene where he demonstrates the kind of regret and remorse for getting Murphy permanently injured that you talk about. If there was, and if he really showed signs of what you mention above, then I think perhaps the whole thing would have been easier to accept.

In Cold Days there is a scene where Fix jumps 11 meters, and its stated (by the intellectus of Demonreach) that he could easily have done more. That easily beats the world record. Assuming that there is balance between the mantles of a knight, then I would say that while there might be somekind of removal of limiters, thats not all there is. Unless Butcher is retconning things, the knights can do things that truly are superhuman.

There are several scenes in both Cold Days and Skin Game where Harry summons fire. There are no signs that he has forgotten fire magic. Yes, obviously he has started to use ice too, and its pretty clear it comes much easier to him thanks to the mantle. But he does still use fire.

Infact, in Skin Game, he uses his staff as a focus for his Fuego spell, implying that he has actually managed to combine his blasting rod with his staff. The rest of the time he uses soulfire to enhance his focus (such as when he throws fire at Tessa/Imariel).

I don't think he needs the blasting rod anymore.

Harrys new staff seems capable of channeling fire, and it also contains the functionality of his force rings (he uses it against Lasciel at the end). He has not forgotten fire.

 

No, he hasn't forgotten fire. I'm aware of the fact that he used it at least three times that I can recall in Skin Games.

But he's always been able to use fire with his staff. The point of having his blasting rod is that it makes fire easier to use. The blasting rod is an instrument that assists in fine control, particularly of fire, which he predominantly uses it for. You say he doesn't need one anymore, but I don't ever recall him saying that.

Not only has he never said anything about not needing one anymore, he hasn't even thought about it.

Why? Why think about how he couldn't make all his other tools, but not that specific one?

The point has nothing to do with whether or not he can use fire.

The point is that he's somehow managed to completely forget to make a tool that would have made him more powerful and more dangerous than he would have been with his staff alone. Almost as though something was deliberately making him forget.

 

Possibly the first time I've said this to you, but very good point there.

But as I said in my initial post I'm not trying to justify Butter's actions, I'm merely trying to understand where the author is coming from.

It's stupid to think that he would just leave such a glaring inconsistency, when the rest of his books have been so well planned. Though as I also said, the particular execution of the Butter's subplot was by far the weakest in the book.

As for your post Lord Raine... I'm sorry but TLDR. Just don't have the time/effort/patience to trawl through one of your behemoths right now.

 

He does think about the blasting rod actually.

Why did he not create one? Maybe the rod requires more delicate tools than he had. Or maybe he did not have time, since he was busy working on the wooden skull for Bob (which he had to do, since he swore an oath on his power to make it).

That being said, Harrys new staff does seem to handle fire better than the old one. I mean when he does use it to focus his fire spells, it does seem to basically work aswell as the blasting rod did. When we combine that with the fact that he added the force ring functionality to it too, its quite plausible that since he (for whatever reason) could not make a blasting rod, he added that functionality to his staff as much as he could.

While tools are great and the shield bracelet is something he really needs to create, I would not mind if he can use fire without the blasting rod in the future books. Would show his growth in skill.

 

Oh, you guys are talking about his blasting rod.

I figured he hadn't made a new one, as it was mainly used for focusing his evocation spells. He seems to have no problem doing that without his blasting rod with the Winter Knights mantle.

 

That's kind of my point.

 

Actually, no he's not. He has mentioned quite regularly in both Cold Days and Skin Game that it takes more energy to use his regular spells without proper foci than it would be otherwise. Case in point, every time he uses his shield spell.

The mantle only does for his spells what it does for everything else; it dulls his sense of pain so that he's able to keep going well beyond the point where a regular Wizard would be crippled by the amount of magic he's channelled. Otherwise it just gives him some easy access to Unseelie magic.

 

See, there you go riding off with assumptions again. Does it give him access to Unseelie magic? You sure about that? And what would you define as that in the first place?

 

It's never directly stated, but there is a lot of evidence that can be used to infer it.

1) Before taking up the mantle Harry only creates ice through the use of fire magic. Afterwards, ice magic everywhere.

2) Said ice magic is directly linked to the Winter Knight's mantle. Harry draws upon the mantle to use it.

3) The Winter Knight mantle is part of Winter, it being a part of the Queens' power (this is explained in Cold Days at the same time as when Butters is explaining how the WK toughness works).

4) If the power of the Queens of Winter is not Unseelie magic, what is?

 

There was a lot of evidence to infer that Lash was the Parasite, and I seem to recall getting shouted down that my insistence that it might be a bait-and-switch was nothing more than my being obtuse for the sake of obtuseness.

Funny how that one turned out, isn't it?

 

The basis for Lash being the parasite was an out of universe answer given by Jim. In other words, it was a lie given to us to make the twist more surprising.

Everything I just gave relies on in universe knowledge, not a Word of Jim that may or may not be true. So either the information that has been directly stated to us by characters that are most often used for infodumps (Bob and Butters) is wrong or we can take them at face value and say that Harry channels Unseelie magic when he uses ice spells.

 

And that changes what, exactly? It's less likely to be a bait and switch if it's in the books than out of it?

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

And no, it wasn't a lie. I can already tell I'm going to get tired of saying this, but Lash and Lasciel are separate beings, and Jim has confirmed that both of them were in Ghost Stories. I'm literally browsing the Word of God thread right now. That shit was a page and a half back. I could probably find it for you if you wanted me to.

One would assume that Lasciel was the shadow that whispered in Harry's ear back in Changes, although other possibilities for that would include Anduriel and Lucifer. Lash has yet to be concretely identified.

If you want to play the justification/counter-justification game, where you say "but this is a thing" and then I say "and here's a reason the thing could be a thing without it being the thing you think it is," we can do that, but I'm not sure where that will actually get us. My point is that we shouldn't be making assumptions, not that any of the assumptions we've made are necessarily right or wrong.

I suspect I'm right on quite a great deal many things I've guessed at, like the fact that Lash accepting a new name from Harry being why her nature became mutable and subject to change, and that fact being why Uriel lashed out when Harry unknowingly tried to give him a new name by calling him Uri. However, I'm not going to go around espousing them as fact, because I know better. It's all just speculation.

 

You really want us to qualify everything we say so that it's absolutely clear that we're speculating? Fine. Take it as a general rule that when I state something without qualification that you could safely append the words 'in my opinion' to the end of it.

 

Yeah. The lack of shield bracelet was mentioned several times as being crippling. The lack of rod is less so, but probably because the staff works for fire. It should also be mentioned that in Cold Days, Mab basically put Harry through training in using magic without foci by forcing him to constantly defend himself without any tools, so it makes sense he would be better at it now.

Yeah. Harry has started to use ice a lot, to the point of creating ice walls and other stuff he was never hinted at being able to do before. Now whether the mantle actually powers ice magic, or just "attunes" Harry to ice magic so it comes easier, but with the raw power still coming from Harry is up to debate.

Then again, Fix can throw bolts of fire now, and he was never a wizard. That implies the mantles do give power over their element (summer fire/winter ice) beyond just blocking pain/exhaustion.

Ofcourse another question is how this happens. What I mean is, in Cold Days, Harry seems able to decide how much power he draws from the mantle. Its just that the more he uses, the crazier he becomes. We see this when he tries to actively draw power from the mantle against Maeve, and basically forgets what he was even planning on doing and just barely manages to kick the mantle out and regain his mind.

So its possible that he could draw actual energy from the mantle and avoid the normal drain on himself that magic causes. But there would be a price, and Harry is not willing to pay that price.

I think it was pretty much confirmed that the whisperer was Lasciel. She openly states her awareness of the whisper that killed Harry.

While it might be possible someone like Anduriel was doing what she asked and she did not do it herself, that seems pretty unlikely at this point. As for Lash, while again, nothing is absolutely certain, it seems likely that she is gone and what remains "lives on" in her spiritual "daughter", the SoI.

Thse things are basically confirmed are they not? Bob basically stated flat out that giving a name helped Lash "separate" from Lasciel. And Uriel was actually stated to be frightened by the nickname.

Though I think in Uriels case its more the style of the nickname. Apparently the -el suffix means "of god" or somesuch, so the nickname "Uri", which lacks "el" would have obvious major negative connotations to Uriel. He has no problem being called Mr. Sunshine.

 

I'm not a fan of people talking about speculation and guesswork as though it's a fact. Mab's made it quite clear through various events and actions that she's screwing Harry over and/or lying to him severely about something to do with his status as the Winter Knight, and Jim has confirmed that: something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

As far as that particular subject is concerned, I'm not terribly willing to take anything for granted.

Are we sure he's actually using Unseelie magic?

Are we sure this isn't another case of Lea and the magic feather gambit?

Are we sure Mab isn't fucking with his mind and thoughts on a passive level?

I don't trust Mab. Creating the Winter Knight is literally Mab making a dagger specifically uniquely capable of slitting her own throat, and then sending it out into the world to confront enemies that would cheerfully see her dead. You better believe I'm going to obsessively check the handle for a whittled stick of dynamite.

No. It takes two seconds to do a spellcheck. It takes less time than that to put "in my opinion" in front of things. I try to insert "in my opinions," "I'm pretty sures," "I suspects," and "I believes" in as often as possible when speculating on things to make it clear that I'm asserting opinions, not facts, and I'm happy to be called out on it if I forget to do it.

True, which makes her the strongest contender for it, but she might merely be aware of the event, and not actually be the perpetrator. They do all work for the same organization, after all.

Unless you can find me a thing where Jim says "nah, I fucked up" that dates after "Lash and Lasciel's stories aren't over, you saw them both in Ghost Stories," then I don't really think so, no. Bullshitting the thing where "she lives on 'in spirit'" wouldn't be correct.

She's still around. We just don't know how, or why.

Unless you're saying the daughter is literally Lash with Convenient Amnesia, in which case I suppose that's possible.

No, it hasn't been confirmed, as far as I'm aware.

Mr. Sunshine isn't really a name, though, which is why I suspect Uriel was fine with it. It's more of a nickname as opposed to a new name, and there definitely seems to be a difference between the two.

 

This would require Harry to have a reason to turn on Mab. He also has multiple reasons not to.

- Harry knows Mab is protecting the outer gates. Take out Mab, and Harry might well doom the world. Harry won't do this.
- Kill Mab, and Molly becomes the Queen of Winter. Any hope Molly has of retaining her human soul is gone in an instant. Harry knows this.
- Harry has a very good idea what happened to the last knight who acted against Mab, so even if the above dangers don't stop him (and lets face it, we know they would), the personal fear of what happened to Lloyd Slate would.
- Mab also knows about Maggie, and its awfully convenient that those defending her and the carpenter household against mortal threats (such as assasins Nicodemus might hire) are going to be winter sidhe.

Basically, I think you are underestimating Mab. I think she has already been taking steps to make sure that Harry won't turn on her, by giving him multiple reasons not to.

Also, you mentioned the whole blasting rod thing earlier. If you believe Mabs been messing with Harrys mind for reasons of protecting herself, don't you think she would actually encourage Harry to use fire magic?

Harrys fire magic does not come from winter, and is basically an ability he has as a wizard. Harry could never summon sufficient fire to do anything to Mab. If there is a way for Harry to strike at Mab, its by using the winter mantle and winter magics to basically bypass her defenses or somesuch. If Mab wanted to make sure Harry would not pose the slightest threat to him, she would have actually given him a new blasting rod free of charge, and basically encouraged Harry to avoid using ice magics.

However I don't think she would bother either way, because she has already taken steps to remove all possible motivation for Harry to turn on her. Much better to do that, than cripple your own knight. Especially since she knows that apocalypse is coming and that she actually NEEDS an effective knight.

Possible in theory, but unlikely. The whole thing was obviously personal to Lasciel, so presumably she would want to do it herself.

There is also the issue of Uriels interference. The non-fallen angels can only interfere in the world, when they are balancing acts by fallen. Well, Uriel could "cheat" by giving Michael his grace, but thats a massive risk thats not going to be happening every day.

So for example, Nicodemus was so certain that Uriel could do nothing, because smiting Nicodemus on the spot would have been interfering with the free will of Nicodemus, who is still human. Thats the advantage the Denarian-fallen get in human hosts. The actual angels can do nothing, since the fallen in the coins are using the free will of their human hosts.

The fact that Uriel could speak his 7 words to balance the action of the whisperer indicates that the whisperer lacked this free will benefit. That implies we are talking about a fallen that was either not one of the 30 in the coins, or was currently lacking a host. Lasciel fits perfectly, since at the time she was still without a human host.

I would like to think this is the case (I really liked Lash as a character and would love to see her return), but Butcher has basically admitted that he likes giving "Sidhe like" answers. At this point, I suspect Butchers Lash reference was indeed just referring to the "parasite" or SoI. I would like to be proven wrong since I want Lash to come back for real, but I am not holding much hope.

Not by word of god (I think?), but at the end of White Night, Bob basically states that this was a major factor.

Harry also thinks that Lash could change, because she was essentially living in a human brain and consequently capable of change just as humans are.

The full truth is probably a mix of both. Lash was capable of change, because she was inhabiting a human but the reason she ultimately DID start to change was because Harry gave her a name.

Yeah. Though the fact that Uriel says "The part you left off happens to be rather important to who and what I am." implies that the lack of -el was what really set him off.

Odds are he would not have been quite as upset if Harry had not basically implied Uriel was a fallen angel or something by removing "God" from his name.

 

Except according to Shadow Dresden, the one most in contact with Lash, Lash sacrificed herself in the Raith deeps. Shadow Dresden literally says that Lash died. That sacrifice was what precipitated the Parasite. Since the act of sacrifice was an act of love, and the act of love is an act of creation, the sacrifice of Lash killed the shadow of the Fallen Angel in Harry's head, but it created a Spirit of Intellect.

So either the being most in contact with Lash is wrong about what happened to the her, or Jim Butcher was being intentionally misleading about Lash being in Ghost Stories.

 

We also know Mab isn't able to lie. Which means she's able to hear Harry pulling the trigger and releasing the hammer of the gun and in the time before it falls, she's able to kill him or move. (Cold Days.)

I do think Mab is going to die sometime in the series, though.