Doesn't really seem to gel with the way the Dresdenverse works, there being a threshold of power that that prevents infection. I would posit that it is indeed possible for Mab to become infected, save for her own vigilance and knowledge.

 

Seems to me Nemesis was trying to infect as many as possible around her, probably with the intention of removing her. Only it didn't work out.

 

First: Even if an Archangel can blow a galaxy...outsiders are not from our reality, so maybe their powers don't afect them.

Second: Have you ever considered that Lucifers Fall came because Nemesis interference?

Third: Mab didn't knew shit. She was saved because Lea came to her, asking Mab to heal her, because she knew she was infected. Mab healed the ones infected, true, but just because they wanted to be healed, and they fighted against the infection too. If they don't have the will to resist it, Mab cannot heal them (Maeve was this case).

Forth: It was not easy to heal them. In fact they were helpless for a long time (covered in ice) to be healed. That's the reason they could attack Artis Tor, because Mab and most of the Sidhe were out. If they tried the same thing now... good luck looking for bones.

Regarding the differentation you made about having will and having limitations...well angels can choose. Simply, if they go bad, they Fall.

However when i said they needed the knife to kill an inmortal doesn't mean it has to be an archangel. There are more gods and such out there.

 

Must. Not. Troll. Grammar.

A valid point about how the target has to want to be rid of Nemesis to actually be. Sure, it was difficult. Point remains that Nemesis took those closest to Mab in order to overthrow her at a critical point. They failed, and I presume the attack on Arctis Tor was plan B.

Had it been possible for Nemesis to take Mab on directly, it would've.

I guess we could credit every single little thing to Nemesis at this point (which I find annoying.)

It wasn't just Lucifer who fell. A third of the heavenly host supposedly followed. Whether correct or not, there were many angels who weren't content with their lot in heaven.

Did Nemesis get them all of was Lucifer simply a catalyst? I'd say it was option B.

Besides. It rather diminishes how Lucifer fell because of his pride when it wasn't his choice, but a third party screwing him over.

 

Ooooor Nemesis was attempting to get agents placed near Mab so that it could possess Mab.

Remember, Nemesis can't just show up and go "You're infected now lawl" and carry on. It's like a virus, it has to spread from host to host to nearby host. If Mab never came to the Outer Gates in person, never exposed herself to the possibility of infection, then in order to get to her Nemesis would have to infect those close to her. And who better than her daughter and her right hand?

At this point, given the way Outsiders work and the established structure of the Dresdenverse, it would be foolish to assume they can't do anything. The whole point of Outsiders is that the normal rules don't apply. All we know about Nemesis with any certainty is that it's a) subversive and subtle, to the point that it's nearly impossible to detect, b) can only spread through proximity to those previously infected, and c) can be excised from a host by Mab if the host wants it badly enough.

And none of that really supports the idea that there's any being in the Dresdenverse flat out immune to being infected. There definitely could be, but there's nothing that suggests it yet, unless you want to start using logic like "Doctors can cure the flu, therefore they're immune to the influenza virus".

 

This probably isn't important, but something is twigging in my brain...

You have to choose to cast out Nemesis, just like you have to choose to be rid of a Denarian.

But Denarians can only 'infect' mortals (so in a way, Nemesis makes everyone 'mortal').

So, my question would be, can an immortal 'choose' to cast out Nemesis, or at least choose to want it gone, or to "be healed", without the fundamental change Nemesis itself causes?

 

Skin Game seems to contradict this.

No threshold necessary, just a sliding scale. More power = more resistance. Mab's power is great enough that she's effectively immune.

 

We do not know if Bigfoots are immortal. Seems logical to me that the fallen can corrupt anything with a soul, though.

 

Only humans and angels are supposed to actually have a soul though.

It'd make more sense to me that the Denarians can operate through any host, it's just that they prefer not to use non-humans because that comes with the innate limitations in the realm of Free Will and choice that the host has. For example, if, say, Aurora picked up a coin, she'd be able to harness its power just like any Denarian, but the Fallen inside it wouldn't be able to make her tell a lie or act/speak in a direct manner.

It makes a lot more sense to me for it to work that way instead of there being a violation of the pretty firmly established "only humans have souls and therefore Free Will" thing.

 

There is no lore to say Bigfoots (bigfeet)? don't have souls. They're pretty damn humanoid, after all. Just bigger and hairier.

 

The Sidhe are pretty damn humanoid too. Just sexier. Does that mean they have a soul?

I'm not saying it's impossible for Genoskwa to have a soul, seeing as Jim hasn't chimed in on it at all, but it's unlikely. Dresden goes out of his way multiple times throughout the series to emphasize that only humans have souls, and the only thing that's come up to contradict that was when Bob pointed out that Angels are nothing but soul. Given the narrative importance and emphasis that revelation was given, it's extremely unlikely that Butcher would marginalize it by revealing another non-human species with a soul in such a cavalier manner.

 

Everyone knows that the sexier you are, the less soul you have.

 

Then how do you explain gingers, Taure?

Karen Gillan being an obvious exception.

 

Because that's not necessarily the only way to not have a soul.

 

True. There are also asians.

 

I can see Nemesis being able to infect Uriel, Mab and the likes if it gets lucky or they let their guard down. It's just that beings like Uriel and Mab very rarely let their guard down. On top of that, it seems to take time for Nemesis to infect people; it would take a major working much greater than the circle the Denarians built for Ivy to contain Mab, so if she was able to break free from it she'd probably be able to kill the host Nemesis was using before they were able to infect her.

So what Taure's saying is correct in a way. The more powerful a being is the more effort it takes to keep them contained while the infection process is underway, and the more difficult it would be to trick said being into that kind of situation in the first place (also Titania exists exactly for this reason).

 

I'm a little torn on something. Maybe you guys have a definitive answer that I missed.

When Lasciel gave Harry the coin, his soul melded with the echo of Lasciel to create Lash. I was the impression that this entity was the parasite-child. But everyone else seems to believe that it was a second created spirit, born from Lash and Harry rather than Lasciel and Harry. Word of God from way back saying that we'd see Lash again is what I took as proof of this, but maybe I imagined that or got it confused with Butcher saying we'd see Lasciel again.

Is this definitively known, or is this just the fan interpretation of something which is unclear?

Basically:

Dresden + Lasciel = Lash or Dresden + remnants of Lash = Maggie2

 

'The Parasite' is explicitly the being born of Lash's sacrifice for Dresden. Lash gave her life for Dresden's, and that act of selfless love made Dresden mpreg and ultimately culminated in the birth of the Spirit of Intellect that now resides in Bob's former backup skull.

This spirit is not Lash, though it does retain Lash's knowledge IIRC. That doesn't necessarily mean Lash is gone forever, but her reappearance isn't all that likely IMO.

 

Yeah. I think its pretty likely that when Butcher previously said that the story of Lash was not over, he was referring to the fact that the "daughter" of Lash lived on. Which was arguably kind of deceptive of him, but meh.

Regardless, its made pretty clear in the book that this new spirit of intellect is a totally new entity born of somekind of merging between Harrys soul and whatever Lash was. The "inner" Harry also implied that the spirit was only born because Lash truly did sacrifice herself (which qualified as an "act of love" that was needed), so the odds that Lash still exists either in Harrys head or as somekind of independent spirit somewhere are pretty low in my opinion. I think Lash is quite dead.

We also don't know how much of Lash's knowledge the newborn spirit has. As a "copy" of an actual angel, Lash obviously knew a lot. Heck, it was implied during her death scene that she even knew the full story about Dresdens mother. Not to mention the absurd quantity of knowledge about magic, reality, outsiders and basically everything that an angel would be expected to have.

Since the SoI should have no valid reason to refuse to answer any questions Harry might have, I could see Butcher saying that the SoI did not inherit all of Lash's knowledge (just most of it). That Lash was under psychic assault by an outsider could be used as a justification for why some knowledge might have been lost. Then again, the series is starting to approach the end, so maybe I am wrong and the new SoI is actually going to tell Harry (and us readers) whats really going on.

Anyway, I do think that Lash is gone for good. And given that Lasciels coin got buried in the vault of Hades under tons of rubble, its plausible that we won't see the original Lasciel either. The meeting between her and Harry was not all that spectacular so I would not be shocked if she does not return again.

 

The greater circle thing seems like a pretty huge plothole to me. How did they torture Ivy?

Either before the circle when she was passed out... In which case it would've been pointless... Or when she was inside it. How would they, though, without breaking it?

Is that a thing with greater circles? People may cross them without breaking them? Cause it seemed like Harry had to do several things to screw it up, rather than just crossing it.

In any case, could they not have slapped a thorn manacle on her wrist and been done with it?

Her magic is, after all, nothing but expertly wielded mortal magic. Wouldn't have let Harry and the others any way of finding her... But surely it would've been smarter and simpler.
If nothing else, why not use both?

While on the topic of coins... Yeah, it seems unlikely that anybody is going to get Lasciel's coin for a while. However, what do you think Nicodemus does with Deirdre's coin?
He either has someone in mind for it already, or he decides to fuck with Michael's or Harry's family using it. Say, telling one of the squires to drop it in a houseplant when raiding the place.

It may be that the guardians around and inside the place would spot it, I dunno.

Or, I guess, he'll just keep it as a token to remember her by. Doubt it, though.