yes but the thing is we don't have a timeline without some meddling in the past simply because all the timelines that exist contain a version of john connor.

And he can't exist without time travel.

I'm wondering how that paradox came into being.

 

Terminator 1; a John Connor seemingly free of any time travel sends back Kyle... so he existed before the universe where Kyle becomes his father. He existed before SkyNet developed the TDE.
Pity we don't see anymore of that universe.

 

Originally, Sarah Connor raped baby Kyle Reese.

John thought it would be better if he was conceived by an older, more consenting Kyle, so he sent him back in time.

 

Or, maybe Kyle Reese wasn't John Conner's father.

Making the future John Conner the actual John Conner, the one to lead man kind to victory, and the one fathered by Kyle, a nobody.

 

I don't think your seeing my point. As we know it, John connor is born to sarah connor and Kyle reese. That is the cannon. the very first John Connor can never exist without having sarah connor do it with reese.

That can't happen with out time travel because at the time of John Connors birth, Kyle Reese hadn't even been born yet.

So the only way John Connor can exist is if kyle reese is sent back in time to impregnate Sarah connor.

Thats why the original john connor has to be from a timeline that has been medled with.

Of course that does assume geneticly identical John connors.

If I understand Murtons suggestion, the john connor we've seen born from kyle reese and sarah connor isn't the same genetic john connor who sent kyle reese back in time.

I guess it could just be a whole nurture versus nature argument where it doesn't really matter who johns father is as long as sarah raises him the way she did.

By that logic, John connor is like a machine.
A John connor is made, not born.

I never really thought about that. But then again I prefer the paradox version. its more complicated and makes me think.

 

Most people seem to prefer that but yeah, Murton's idea was what I was trying to get to.

Of course, if T1 future John Connor was conceived by some random guy then why give the photo of Sarah to Kyle. A honestly innocent (and bizarre) gesture? The other option seems to be ultra-manipulation, setting up Kyle with Sarah solely so she would teach young John. Gaining more time against SkyNet by forcing his own birth, perhaps earlier than it should have been.

... time travel is awesome!

 

My mind just exploded. Someone need to write a fic along those lines.

 

What I don't understand is why Skynet built the time machine in the first place. I know they did it as a last ditch effort, but as a machine, don' they remember that it didn't work out for them, and in fact made things worse?

 

that assumes their aware of their own manipulations in the past.

the new movie seems to hint that they do.

Besides they're machines, what do they have to loose by sending terminator sback in the past to destroy their enemies.

so far they've only sent three back in time... but imagine if they can send a small army of terminators back in time. all to hunt down they're enemies.

thats the question we should be asking. Why have they only ever sent one lone terminator on missions, instead of many. the resistance can't have too many converted terminators to send back. sooner or later it will just be a matter of numbers.

 

I've always guessed that they don't send more because they don't want to change too much. They're machines they think logically. All they want is to undo the future where they lose, and create one with a favorable outcome for them. They don't want to completely change everything.

 

Quazijoe mentioned that without John Connor there would be no terminators, this is false. The U.S. Military was already developing war machines (very crude things similar to the large terminators) and Skynet, as evidenced by T3 (and they didn't have the terminator parts to base this off of).

Behold the T-103 (first terminator developed by the US military, ignore the real military robot on right):

 

I tend to ignore T3 since that movie basically fucks over the whole premise behind time travel by stating you can't change the future (judgement day is inevitable). sort of kills the other movies for you. Also makes no sense to build a terminator to destroy terminators, when the resistance captured 2 Terminators.

 

That.

And that reality was still based off the T2 T1 Timeline. I think I heard at some point that they acquired the tech and research from the old cyberdine research. Don't quote me because its the vaguest of memorys that may just be some story or plot line I've forgotten.

 

They didn't acquire any tech from previous research, they explain that Skynet develops the later models of terminator on its own (I recently watched T3 for the first time, needed to fill the gap formed when I watched T:S).

Seeing as Skynet was aware of the changes in the timeline in T:S, I would assume that it was in T3 as well, which means that it would expect the resistance to use whatever terminator they could get their hands on to counter anything they sent back. So, why not build something that could presumably not fail at its mission?

They also set up the basis that Skynet is software that requires a network, which after it bombs most of the world, it would require one. I gathered from T:S that the tower they destroyed was a vital networking center in the western U.S. area. Thoughts?

 

When I said tech I don't mean the actual terminators but maybe a salvaged chip or something like that. or even the people other than the dyson.

Presumably he wasn't the only person working with the materials. He was key but others were probably studying the thing. Even if they were his subordinates.

I think it was on a wiki or or commentary or something that I read that from.

looking for it now anyway

 

Well, I've never read any wiki's or watched any commentary, but I am rewatching T2 and the lab in which they are working on the chip and the arm looks very familiar, so do the people. Makes me think of the lab in T3 that the airforce had where they developed the early terminators and Skynet.

I also didn't think of the other people who worked in the lab, bad assumption to make that dyson was the only one with files on his home computer.

Edit: In the movie they say that dyson developed a processor from the remains of the first terminator that made Skynet possible, not that he was its creator.

Apparently it was used in military hardware, mostly aboard stealth bombers, and because of its great effect upon mission success they used the technology to remove the human element altogether. Eventually the system running the military at this point, Skynet, became self-aware and due to this the humans panicked, trying to cut the plug.

Humans were a threat, and they were eliminated. (oooh, drama)

 

good article discussing some of the points.

http://www.cracked.com/article_17390_5-reasons-terminator-franchise-makes-no-goddamn-sense.html

 

Gotta admit that I was pleasantly surprised. After all the shit reviews I was pretty worried, but it wasn't bad at all. Certaintly not as good as it could have been, but not bad.

The biggest flaw in the movie was the same one that screwed up Spider-Man 3. They just tried to tell too many stories all at once.

Spoiler

They would have been better off saving Marcus for a sequel and focusing on John. Having him meet up with Kyle after the mission went bad instead of Marcus would have made the story flow much better.

Arnold's cameo was pretty awesome, and I really enjoyed seeing the T-800 taking its rightful place as an unstoppable engine of destruction again.

 

I'm still shocked at how bad the reviews are...

This movie is blockbuster worthy but soley based on the reviews it won't get as good an audience as it could.

People are going to read the main review sites and see all these low scores and think T3. Its a conspiracy of massive proportions is what it is!

I wan't there to be another terminator movie so I hope this does well enough to justify a sequel.

 

sorry for the double post and semi necro but this is related to me and Darje's banter about cyberdine and its source material; in relation to T3

I finally found some evidence for my statement that T3 and skynet in that movie was based off of cyberdines orginal research.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYy0H1wuMYA

the deleted scene while cut clearly illustrates that cyberdines work survived in some form and hence was able to influence skynets development.