I don't think there's any dispute that the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory applies to online gaming just as much as it does to anything else on the internet.

I suppose what I would dispute is that gamers are some sort of special category. If there's one thing the internet has taught us, it's that there are a lot of people who will be utterly horrible when they can do so without facing any consequences for their actions. Combine that with the fact that most games don't have any means of enforcing good behavior, and that's all the explanation you really need.

The same goes for how most games handle female characters. Pretty much every form of mass media is still having a hard time shaking the idea that women can be more than scantily clad sex-objects who only for the titillation of men. Big budget hollywood action movies still have trouble figuring out how to do more with female characters that "stand around looking pretty, and let us cut the trailer in a way that makes people think you might get naked if they come to see the full movie."

So I guess I take issue with the idea that gamers are some sort of especially misogynistic throwback group. To me, it seems a lot more like society as a whole is still adjusting to feminism, and gaming just tends to show that more often because you can get away with saying a lot of BS online thanks to internet anonymity.

 

It doesn't help that gaming can be competitive.

 

You know life is fucking awful when Breitbart is doing actual investigative reporting while everyone else is reading off a list.

And also have any of you checked out the Wikipedia for this entire thing? It's a fucking infowar, about how the entirety of GamerGate is about misogyny and how all accusations against Zoe are completely false. Trying to say anything otherwise has to come from a "reputable source" when their definition of that is literally all the sites involved in the controversy and are being accused of being in bed, figuratively and literally, with the subject they're reporting on.

 

Wikipedia is not objective?! Impossible!

 

That....is a lot of people in a lot of places.

 

This thread has seriously gone to shit. Honestly can't believe anyone is taking "leaked" skype conversations and "leaked" emailing lists with any seriousness.

 

I can't believe anyone is taking any of this seriously.

 

People don't like being harassed by hypocritical idiots in positions of influence.

I know, I'm shocked too.

 

I'm kind of sickened and amazed that this entire thing is still going on. Usually after the first two or three weeks shitstorms in the gaming industry are completely forgotten unless they involve legal action.

Still, this has been a long time coming and unfortunately it isn't happening in a productive way. Part of that can be blamed on the fact that everyone is still hung up on Sarkessian and Quinn, either coming to their defense or attacking them, both are making things difficult. The real issue here is about the boundaries between developers, journalists, and publishers that have been blurred for an awfully long time with little regard for their impacts and meaning. How do you fairly judge a game developed by a company that has money in your advertising revenue? How do you judge the game fairly or in such a way as to provide useful information to consumers when the game is made by a small studio that you know is just trying to get by and are friends with some of the people who make it up? Hell, how do you justify providing half a billion hype pieces about a game that isn't even out yet (cough cough IGN cough)? These are all things that need to be discussed in conjunction with setting a clear level of standards that those in the gaming press should abide by for disclosure and reporting in general.

Unfortunately, these are all things that wont be discussed as long as the mudslinging and shit throwing continues on either side of the trenches. Almost wish this entire discussion happened two years ago with the whole Rob Florence debacle on Eurogamer. That way the people being talked about would be a man, journalistic laws and a few companies so as to not have the entire thing clouded with discussions of gamers being dead, misogyny, and fucking death threats.

When in doubt though, just stop going to these sites and support the reporters/journalists/critics you trust on youtube or the like. Hell, this may be a reason I actually start using patreon.

 

Except that's not what's happening in 90% of cases.

Honestly, the only reason this hasn't blown over is precisely because of Quinn, Sarkeesian and other 'strong independent womyn'. There has been a good conversation to be had about video game ethics for years now (Legacy mentioned the Florence incident from almost 2 years ago) but that isn't the reason that this is so long lasting; GamerGate has been hijacked by misogynists and literal scum.

There is a reason that this has been a topic in the industry for a long time with little progress: the majority of gamers, those with their asses in seats and fingers on the gamepad, don't actually give a fuck. The majority of the fuel on this fire is not (somewhat justified) outrage over the ethics of video gaming journalism but angry men who don't like Sarkeesian and want to slut shame Quinn and who want to fight the incursion of SJW politics into videogames. This is why you're seeing horrible shits like Owen, Aurini and Nero coming out in support of it. It's why you're seeing Right Wing activists jump on this bandwagon like it's going out of fashion.

There's a time and place for the discussion of journalistic ethics, but this is no longer it. GamerGate can't win, because it's been hijacked by a bunch of shitlords who still think they're living in the bronze age and nobody in the modern world wants to know.

I will be very surprised if there aren't a whole bunch of reforms in the gaming "press" following this, but they will be in spite of GamerGate, rather than because of it.

And trust me, this isn't a fight you want to win, even if you could.

 

I think I'm the only person here who doesn't give a shit about 'journalistic integrity', or about that aspect of this debate.

Games journalism for me has always been about finding a personality who's gaming sensibilities match your own and following them for info - while pretty much ignoring everyone else.

I'm more hacked off at the censorship. About how that Indy charity got shut down, but no one reported on it etc.

 

You're actually using words like "slut shaming" and "shitlords". The former as though it was bad to make someone feel ashamed for cheating on her partner, while simultaneously using that to her benefit where it concerns her video game (though I'd argue about that shit qualifying as a video game in the first place), the latter as some kind of insult that's supposed to generalize the hell out of one group of people.

I mean, you talk like this shit doesn't matter. None of it. In the long run, in terms of the heat death of the universe, I suppose you're right. The whole thing just keeps shitting on a hobby that a lot of people enjoy, and you seem to be like "Oh well, they shouldn't do anything now because they did nothing before". It was just a much needed catalyst.

Are there misogynists involved in the GG thing? Sure, there's probably more than a few. Just like there's more than a few misandrists involved with the other side. What's your fucking point with this? There's always going to be shit on any side that you could use to vilify or simply dismiss their complaints with claims of some offensive behavior.

 

I don't agree with this. There are always shitty people doing shitty things. We can't dismiss people and their issues because of that.

Funnily enough the sentiment that GamerGate is all about Zoe and hating women etc... is the exact same rhetoric games media has been using to dismiss the issue. It's not a complete fabrication I'll give you that, but anyone can put #GamerGate into a tweet with any amount of insane bullshit attached.

That same thing applies to the SJW position as well. Zoe Quinn and Anita (to an extent) are horrible shits who came out in support of it. And People like the games media jumped on the bandwagon because they knew they could make money from it. Except what, it's fine if they win?

 

I disagree with the concept that saying someone is a bad person for serially cheating and lying about it is slut shaming. She's a horrible person, end of.

That said, I suspect a lot of the frustration here has little to do with corruption, or toadying between journalists and developers (repellant as everyone falling over each other to defend their mates is), it seems mostly based on trends in the games industry that people dislike. And im not sure you can append "gate" to that. I have generally disliked John Walker and Nathan Greyson for some time, and it has nothing to do with their perceived corruption. I dont think they are corrupt. I think they are awful people with terrible opinions. And thats the end of it as far as im concerned. You cannot get them to go away so long as they are still read. I dont think indyfund is a conspiracy either.


Edit:

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whut? I think Nietzsche is still pretty well regarded.

 

I don't think that it's any of my business, or yours, or anyone other than the people involved for that matter.

Yes, like I said, particularly earlier in the thread, this is inappropriate conduct from her and the other parties involved.

Yes, I generalised shitlords as shitlords.

That's not what I said. I specifically said "There has been a good conversation to be had about video game ethics for years now". I do think it matters.

I don't think it was a catalyst. It's the point of the argument. This topic has been raised time and time again and it's only now when two notable feminists and a whole bunch of SJWs are involved that it's suddenly this massive issue? Please.

"And trust me, this isn't a fight you want to win, even if you could."

This is my point. It's a zero-sum game and the only way to win is not to play. Even as much as I think that the ethics of video game journalism is a valid concern, like Nietzche and the Nazis, your stance has been stained by the character of the people that have allied themselves to your cause.

 

While I am concerned that people are losing sight of the original issue, I'm hardly against the anti-SJW movement that's sprung up, at least in spirit. SJWs and the leftist agenda has been growing like a cancer on the internet for years, and it's about fucking time that people are becoming aware of it and speaking out against it on a large scale.

Also Sarkeesian is a fraud and Zoe Quinn is, in fact, a slut. (Since when wasn't it shameful to be a slut again?)

You actually used the word "shitlord." Jesus.

 

I think this is the principal issue. I dont think its a bad issue. These people are nuts and their arguments go unchecked all to often.

However, beyond strings being pulled to kill discussion of this on sites like reddit (extremely worrying in and of itself) I dont really see much evidence of a conspiracy.

These people are terrible, and they are all friends. Thats it.

 

And you just called a woman a slut. It isn't your fucking business who she does or doesn't sleep with. And unless you're happy to make your own sex life a matter of public interest, quit making anyone else's.

Furthermore, I'm not interested in having any discussion with you, since you are evidently part of the problem.

Let me put this another way. I have yet to see any SJW or Feminist produce any opinion actually on the ethics of video game journalism, other than a seldom few who have said it is a conversation that needs to be had. I'm pretty sure it can be said that feminists and SJWs don't have a plan that goes:

1. Corrupt the Ethics of Video Game Journalism
2. ???
3. Profit

Also, I hope we can all agree that equality, equal representation and behaving in a civil manner to people regardless of their gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation is a positive concept?

Well this is what the majority of SJWs want. I don't necessarily agree with their tactics (in fact I think a lot of them are fucking mental), but this is the long and short of it. They don't give two flying fucks about the ethical implications of video game journalism.

But ask yourself; then why the fuck are they arguing with you?

Because you're on the other side. Intentionally or not, you're collaborating with people that are actively trying to prevent those things from becoming a reality. And that's a much bigger argument than the ethics of video game journalism. That is why you don't want to win this argument.

 

well, you know, serial cheating is generally regarded as a horrible thing to do to someone. Im not sure I would use the word slut, because it is a loaded word, but what she did was very morally wrong by most standards, including her own.

I've been following this since the inception, and while I have decided its mostly bull spun by people desperately seeking a point, im not entirely sure its right to jump fully onto the other side of the fence either. I mean, im sure there are some pretty nutty people on the anti argument as well.