So all of you think that Gil-Galad's offer was mostly or entirely political in nature and there's nothing to what he and Elrond talked about? Basically keep Galadriel away from Middle-Earth and Sauron will be content to stay under his rock, and what's with all the in-show assumptions from the common elf that he basically tripped and broke his neck? They do know he's an immortal demi-god, right? The opposition to Galadriel's quest seems somewhat contrived to force drama.

 

The opposition does make some sense. Sauron may be one of the Maia, but on his own that is not so great a threat. Elves are capable of killing balrogs, after all. And canonically, Sauron was beaten in personal combat by Gil-galad and Elendil working together.

The real danger Sauron presents is his ability to muster armies and build kingdoms of orcs and evil men. And the Elves have been keeping a watch out for that sort of thing - see Arondir's plotline - and have not detected anything of the sort. So they do have some justification for believing that even if Sauron is out there, he is not doing anything that constitutes a real threat.

 

Honestly, yes to the first, but no to the second.

I think Gil-Galad's fear is that Galadriel's constant efforts to hunt down Sauron are likely to inflame tensions with other peoples. We can already see the resentment festering among the people of Tirharad at their Elven 'overlords', and if Galadriel starts to throw her weight around with Elvish troops at her back, that resentment may well spread, providing a fertile ground for Sauron's manipulations.

I don't think he's talking about any prophecy, but instead a collective opinion among the Elf Lords that Galadriel is, in effect, a destabilising influence at best, and a warmonger at worst. Perhaps there is even talk of her quest for revenge being a repeat of the Oath of Feanor, and all the evil that it brought with it. I think Gil-Galad is confident in the strength of his realm, and their ability to defeat any meagre force the forces of evil may manage to muster (given that it has been years since Orcs have been sighted).

It is worth remembering that Sauron was commanded by Eonwe to return to Valinor to be taken before Manwe, but he fled. It is not immediately clear that anyone knew that the source of the evil influence in the east and south was actually Sauron. Morgoth had many servants, and more than just Sauron hid from the judgement of the Valar after Morgoth's fall. Even in canon, no-one (not even Galadriel, she distrusted him, but didn't know his true nature) realised Annatar was Sauron until after the creation of the One. If they'd had any inkling, you can be sure they'd do more than just distrust him. Sauron, of Gorthaur, was well hated among the Elves thanks to his First Age actions.

With hindsight you might say 'well obviously he was still alive', but that does the characters a disservice. As far as they're aware, Morgoth and all his followers were defeated, with only a few Orcs left to sully the land. Sauron even made a show of repenting before Eonwe (before later fleeing at the thought of having to face consequences for his actions).

 

I was happy to take Gil Galad's conversation with Elrond at face value, myself. This isn't House of the Dragon.

 

Will say, it's intriguing to have House of the Dragon and Rings of Power going on at the same time. You know somewhere there is a college film major writing their paper on the contrasting themes.

 

A superficial connection for this hypothetical film major, TIL the RoP Eldrond actor also played young Ned in those Tower of Joy flashbacks

 

Here is some deep lore for y'all that may make
it wash down better. I still hate the Gil-Galad amnesty thing personally, but yeah.

Letter 297 very clearly indicates that Galadriel and the other Noldorin leaders were permabanned in one version of the Legendarium, even after the Valar granted amnesty to all elves in Middle Earth post War of Wrath. Galadriel is also pretty adamant about refusing the pardon anyway in most versions.

Now, whether the continued ban was just a rule, or magical mandate, or something self-imposed by Galadriel due to shame/pride remains to be seen.

If you go the self-imposed exile explanation, Gil having power to grant amnesty again becomes slightly more palatable. Essentially he's giving her a public pardon. Nothing divine, just providing her the chance to pass into the west with her dignity and pride intact.

 

Episode 3 was great. So many unexpected lore drops and the plot is starting to take firmer shape.

Pacing and editing was 100x better. A lot of people rag on Wayne Che Yip for Wheel of Time, but he's a pretty talented director.

My biggest issue was Elendil being described as of a once noble house. They're either skipping Amandil entirely or changing it so he's chilling in Andúnië with Anarion, disgraced for being an elf-friend, in a similar fashion to Tar-Palantir exiled away in his tower.

Halbrand is still too sus for me to buy into his being the lost king of the southlands. His murder spree and apparent mastery of blacksmithing were big red flags. Still, this could very easily point to Witch King instead of Sauron.

I kinda love that this show is basically just a game of Middle-earth Among Us.

This one was a solid 9/10.

 

My main feeling on watching episode 3 is that I want more. In many ways that is good - it means they are doing enough right to reel me in. But in many ways it is also bad, because it means that what they are serving up is inadequate. It's like being given a single bite of a delicious cake. Yes, thank you, I loved it, but where's the rest of my cake?

I have been trying to pin down exactly what this feeling is, and I think it is this: it still feels like I am watching a trailer rather than the show itself. Everything feels so surface-level. They are spending so much time teasing the existence of deeper things which are being left unsaid. Dialogue alludes but never engages.

A prime example is Galadriel's status in Numenor. She refers to her being from the house of Finarfin but there's nothing to indicate to the viewer that Finarfin is a royal house and Galadriel is among the highest status Elves. Isildur later refers to her as "THE Galadriel", but other than killing orcs we have no explanation of why she would be so widely known. Later with Halbrand, Galadriel talks about redeeming her bloodline but doesn't say what evil has been done which requires redemption.

The show is alluding to the mythology and status associated with her house and their history, but is refusing to come out and state it, which prevents Galadriel's character from being given depth, and shuts down avenues of interesting and meatier dialogue which cannot be used as the background to give context to that dialogue hasn't been laid out.

Another example is Elros. We get a mention of him. But all that really turns on this mention is another reminder of the age of Elves relative to men. But it is not stated that Elros is the founder of Numenor or their first king. Nor is it stated that he chose to be mortal whereas Elrond did not. Both key items in giving greater depth to Numenor's society and also a chance to give greater depth to various characters' relationships. We aren't even told how long ago he lived, which limits even the one purpose it does serve of showing Galadriel's age. All we really get is a cute reference for fans to go "Yay Elros!" and then we move on.

In short, lore references are being treated as Easter eggs for fans rather than key events in the characters' histories which explains who they are, what their motivations are, etc. Character is suffering for it, as is dialogue, because there are so many "no go" topics which cannot be spoken about.

Whether they have made this choice because they want to save those revelations for later, or because they are excessively afraid of exposition overload, I am not sure. But either way I think it is a mistake, because it is currently a barrier between the viewer and the characters.

I think the pacing issues are then exacerbated by the fact that the Harfoot storyline is more normally paced, possibly even a bit on the slow side, and the contrast makes you feel like the show is simultaneously rushing and taking too much time.

Perhaps once we have all 8 episodes and you can watch them as a block, these pacing issues will fall away. But if that is the case they really should not be releasing it week by week.

 

I still get thrown off whenever Galadariel talks about Evil as this very real force in the world.

It's just at odds with how storytelling has evolved from such clear black and white distinctions.

Like for example, Galadariel saying how a place is so evil, even fire can't generate warmth, sounds extremely corny to me.

Halfbrand is Sauron in hiding?

It would be such a nice Ironical twist to find out that Galadriel was chilling with the one person she has dedicated her life to killing.

 

Halbrand is nicely being setup for being Sauron if it will happen. All these scene where Galadriel wants him to get back and now to lead people of Southlands will be wonderfully twisted, especially if Sauron really wanted an out of the whole Dark Lord job after his more powerful master couldn't win the war against pretty much everybody.

 

I liked Numenor, quite cleverly filmed, absolutely feels like a version of Atlantis which is perfect.

The focus on VFX is bad, the props needed more budget and it all feels a bit generic because of that.

I also still don't see the point of the Harfoots? Harfeet? It just feels like they've slammed shows together and we could use the time better on characterisation and exploring Numenor and actually background expalanation which the show desperately needs.

 

It's interesting. I feel like there are multiple things at work here.

The first, and possibly the largest, is fairly simple: So much of what we 'know' about characters in The Lord of the Rings comes from secondary sources. We are told, for example, that Glorfindel is one of the greatest of the Elf Lords who still resides in Middle-earth, but we have no idea why. Oh, sure, delve into the Silm and other assorted things and you get a more full picture but within the context of the immediate story, we're simply informed that he is a bad-ass and that's pretty much it.

Similarly, the only mention of Elros, or any familial relationship between Aragorn and Elrond is confined to the Appendices. It's a regular thing.

An important aspect of how Tolkien wrote was the mythic feel, and a core component of that was a thing which I remember an academic referring to as 'broken references'. These are passing mentions of characters or places which would be considered common knowledge at the time of writing, but which have since become lost. The most oft-quoted of these is the phrase 'the cats of queen Beruthiel' which is only explained in some fairly obscure places. Within the context of the Lord of the Rings as written, these things are meant to be broken.

I think that's what the writers are looking for here. Tolkien never really has moments of 'as you know' exposition. Sometimes the narrative delves into exposition through how people and places are described (occasionally making use of the narrative conceit to drop future information into the story), but the characters themselves never engage in conversations for the sole purpose of exposition for the reader. It seems like they've tried to do the same here, but as they only have the dialogue and visuals, with no way for the narration to fill in any necessary gaps, it maybe leaves things a bit more sparse than it might otherwise be.

Then again, if a viewer is coming to the show without a deep knowledge of the Legendarium, it may do just enough to add flavour without leaving them drowning in names and places which have to be remembered. I imagine we'll be gradually filled in, for example, on the folly of Feanor and the resulting guilt that Galadriel carries. They're probably saving this for a particular low-moment when some opponent can throw it in her face.

Are they being overly sparing with this kind of information? Maybe. It feels like it to me because I know just how much is being left out, but it's honestly almost impossible for me to judge. My partner is coming into this from a position of having watched the movies and little else, and while she's missing those little dangling references, it is in no way impacting her understanding of the overall direction of the story.

I do get the feeling that this is a series which is going to have to be judged as a whole. The individual episodes themselves don't stand up all that well as pieces of standalone television.

 

I haven't watched episode three fully yet, but Halbrand is obviously Sauron or meant as a Sauron bait. Hell, the first scene he is in, he says appearances are deceiving. This episode, he brags about his smithing/crafting skills and goes on a murder spree. Can't really get more on the nose than that. Knowing Amazon, doubt they care whether it fits the lore or whatever.

Edit. Watched the rest of the episode, now a bit unsure. Maybe Adar is Sauron, as it would fit more with the lore? Still, I'm leaning on the direction of Halbrand being Sauron, since the writers probably want the good girl / evil guy steamy romance vibes from this + all the hints they've dropped.

 

I'm a bit disappointed that they couldn't resist the urge to depict the average Numeronian citizen as just regular, dirty peasants you might meet anywhere else in the world.

 

How could they have been depicted?
Not a book reader.

 

Not a book reader merely a wiki walker but Numenorians are descended from the first houses of men who stood with the elves during the war against Morgoth, also their first king was Elrond's half elf brother Elros who chose to be human, and him and his descendants were kings and that half elf blood spread through the island after. Even a bit should make them taller, more noble looking, and live a lot longer than regular men. In the show, I suppose them calling Halbrand 'low-man' is a reference to that, but falls flat.

I've actually got another question for the book nerds in this thread though. I've got captions on and whenever the elves speak in 'elvish' it says it's Quenya. I could understand with Elendil a bit since Galadriel is Noldor but with the other captured elves it was the same, Quenya instead of Sindarin, and on the left during the tree scene it said 'Silvan elves' with this paragraph about how they treasure trees. That led me down a long wiki walk of Silvan/Green/Dark/Grey elves, and damn if Arondir isn't just a farmer but outright a loser wood elf that's disappointing. So, anyone have any idea why they don't speak Sindarin in the show?

 

I'd be willing to bet that's because they didn't wanna train up multiple elven languages and only the real hardcore book nerds would care enough to notice in the first place.

 

Quenya sounds better and is way more fleshed out. It also has far fewer mutations, making it very easy to learn for new scholars.

That's really the long and short of it.

 

Yeah that makes sense, thanks!


Man, I still hope the Stranger is Sauron or at least not Gandalf. I think Adar is an obvious fakeout, but Halbrand also seems too obvious hmm.