1. DLP Flash Christmas Competition + Writing Marathon 2024!

    Competition topic: Magical New Year!

    Marathon goal? Crank out words!

    Check the marathon thread or competition thread for details.

    Dismiss Notice
  2. Hi there, Guest

    Only registered users can really experience what DLP has to offer. Many forums are only accessible if you have an account. Why don't you register?
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Introducing for your Perusing Pleasure

    New Thread Thursday
    +
    Shit Post Sunday

    READ ME
    Dismiss Notice

The Questions Deathly Hallows threw up.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 007_rock, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. 007_rock

    007_rock DA Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2007
    Messages:
    158
    Location:
    Cochin
    Eventhough JKR promised to clear up all the lose ends in Deathly Hallows, sadly it left even more questions than answers. Lets fans all try to brainstorm to find answers to some of them.

    1. How did the Sword return to the Hat, when Griphook had it last?

    2. 'Gringots is the safest place to keep something safe, except maybe Hogwarts' If all you had to do was Imperio a couple of goblins (remember Harry was doing it for the first time) to access any vault, how can you that its so safe? They were discovered because they were in disguise, but under normal circumstances its unnecessary.

    3. George's ear was severed by Sectumsempra, dark curse so couldn't be reattached. But Snape fixed up Malfoy easy enough after Harry cut him up?

    4. Voldemort believed he was the only one smart enough to find the RoR to hide something. How can he, when there was centuries of stuff hidden inside?

    5. How exactly did Voldemort and even Snape fly? (this pisses me of to no end.):confused:

    6. While the trio was escaping on the dragon and blasting off walls, couldn't one of them have summoned the sword from Griphook?

    7. Was the shrivelled child in Kings Cross Voldemort's soul?

    These are somethings I can recall over the top of my head, but am sure there is plenty more. Come on what are your views?
     
  2. Lorelei of the Sea

    Lorelei of the Sea Unspeakable

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2005
    Messages:
    753
    Location:
    Southern California
    There were three very unusual factors aiding Harry in the break-in.
    -Imperio is very very illegal under usual circumstances (when Voldemort isn't in control of the ministry). Most wizards probably don't know how to do it, or if they know how, they are unwilling to use it due to the penalty. Also, you have to really mean an unforgivable for it to work, and I think you need to be either evil or desperate to get to that level.
    -Hermione had Bellatrix's wand, which caused the clerk goblin to trust her enough not to raise the alarm.
    -They had a polyjuice potion- a very difficult, obscure potion with rare ingridients, and they had Bellatrix's hair to match.

    Also, remember that Hagrid also said that Hogwarts is safe, and we know that to be extremely untrue.

    They didn't actually have George's ear- they might have been able to reattach it if they actually had it, but they couldn't regrow something severed by dark magic. I think she only cut off George's ear to explain the Moody plot hole- why his leg wasn't regrown using Skelegrow or something.

    Good one. This can be explained in three ways.

    1. Voldemort was an idiot. He realized this, and intended to remove it once he got the job. He never had the opportunity after.
    2. He wasn't 'requiring' the place where everything is hidden, or a place to hide his horcrux. Maybe he just left it in the RoR, assuming someone would have to require the exact same thing he did to find it and that's where the room puts all the real objects left inside. (purely fanon theory, mind)
    3. He assumed that he was the only student of his generation to find the RoR, and that he would take over the Wizarding World and Hogwarts, thus ensuring that no one finds it.

    You need to have a clear picture and a location of the object to summon it, or be able to see it. Mind you, she pretty much fucked it up in DH (Accio Hagrid, anyone?) But I think that's how the charm is supposed to work.




    And here's another one to add to your list of questions. Let's say that that Hermione's memory charm thing wasn't a major plot hole, and that she actually used the confounding charm. What, then, is the difference between a memory charm and a confounding charm? And why couldn't Hermione have just used that instead of a Memory charm?
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2007
  3. Solomon

    Solomon Heir

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    2,744
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Well, well...Isn't this interesting, now...I think I'll give it a go.

    1. Well, if memory serves, in the Chamber of Secrets, a "True Gryffindor" could draw it out out from the hat, if proven necessary. Griphook simply may not have placed it under any special protections prior to it being taken by Neville.

    2. There was just a bit more to it than simply casting the Imperius on a couple goblins, you know. That did play a big part on the fact that this was even remotely successful, however you must consider that they not only had a goblin working on their side to get access to this Vault - which, incidentally, not many wizards could easily accomplish - but you also have to consider the fact that Griphook worked for that specific branch of Gringotts, and thus had inside information on its vaults, as well as the defenses in place for said vaults. With that kind of creature helping you out, an exceedingly difficult task like robbing Gringotts would almost become plausible, if with an unforgivable or two.

    3. For proper understanding of this subject, you have to consider the fact that George lost an ear to Snape's curse. Not only that, but you also have to consider the fact that the caster of the curse, this time, was Severus Snape himself, the creator and master of the spell, as opposed to a sixth year student that read about it in his potions book. This, of course, means that the effects upon George - specifically the after affects - would be quite a bit more severe. Add to that, just how severe were Draco's wounds again? Continuing upon that thought, precisely where on Draco's body were the wounds? They may not have been magically healed at all; instead, they could have simply covered the wounds until nature healed them, and scars - which would be covered by his clothing, I'd assume - would form.

    Well, either that, or as Snape created the spell, and was apparently quite fond of it, he probably figured out what the after-affects were, and could have also figured out a way to eliminate them, should the spell ever fall into the hands of someone that would use it improperly, or upon someone that Snape would rather not get killed, and have to heal in order to save.

    4. Honestly, I'm not going to analyze this one too thoroughly; this was probably Voldemort's ego getting the better of him.

    5. I'd assume it has to do with figuring out how to apply some charm to themselves, perhaps the one that's attached to brooms? Who knows.

    6. Well, as the case has been shown with Harry and the lake, summoning charms don't exactly work on that sword.

    7. This is a distinct possibility, even one that Dumbledore himself was probably referencing, there, in the station. I can't say for sure, but it's definitely a possibility; a fairly likely one, at that.

    I'd like to throw my own questions out there, but at the moment, I can't quite think of any. I'll either post again with the new questions - after answering someone else's, or making some comment upon their own answers - or edit them in, when they come to mind.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2007
  4. 007_rock

    007_rock DA Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2007
    Messages:
    158
    Location:
    Cochin
    I still can't digest the Gringott's issue.

    Lets say for example, some Death-Eater like Mulciber (he is the executioner right?) has need for quite some money. He goes to Gringotts as himself (no disguise) and Imperio the clerk and asks him to take him to the vault of some wealthy client. Teller is forced to obey and calls another goblin to take him. He promptly does the same to new goblin and he is taken to the vault. No security alarms, no trouble with goblins because he knows how to cast an unforgivable properly and he is home free with a load of gold.

    How can a bank exist if its so pathetic?
     
  5. Solomon

    Solomon Heir

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    2,744
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I forget exactly how long Harry and company were planning the vault break-in, but there are still a few big differences between their break-in and an attempt by Mulciber, tossing an Imperius curse at a clerk.

    Firstly, Harry and company had the Goblin plotting with them, so they knew exactly what to expect before they went in, at least to a reasonable extent.

    Secondly, there's the fact that unlike Mulciber, Harry cast it while under his Invisibility cloak. Then, if you consider the possibility of having Mulciber having a cloak on, himself, there are a couple problems. The first problem, of course, is the fact that the Goblin he'd cast the Imperius upon would randomly want to head to the vault, despite not wanting to do so beforehand. Even if Mulciber wasn't alone, it's been shown - multiple times - that Harry's cloak is special, stronger than any other Invisibility cloak in the series. The goblins are probably capable of seeing through a standard Invisibility cloak, at least to the extent that they actually realize that someone's there when the person in the cloak moves.
     
  6. Aakunen

    Aakunen Second Year

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Poland
    That also pissed me of. We just have probably assume that the sword never was in the Hat, but there is some kind of link between those things (both belonged to Godric if my memory serves me right), so maybe it was some kind of an anti-theft charm (if he forgot his sword, he would have to summon it from the Hat).

    their Gringott trip was far to easy. Imperio isn't that difficult - Potter did it so it can't be, Polyjuice isn't also that difficult (bunch of 2nd years made it, so I won't ever believe that it is something hard to get). Either goblins were boasting about their security system, or no one never really tried to rob them (we know only about two attempts of entering vaults without authorisation - both were successful).

    Well, canon!Potter is weak and unskilled - I'd say that he didn't cast that curse right (he had no idea what it did - he just panicked and shouted incantation). You just also have to remember about Moody (guy had many scars - if I remember correctly, he lost a chunk of his nose), so I'd assume that injuries given by the Dark Arts, aren't easy (if not impossible) to cure.

    Canon!Voldemort is a lame and predictable villain - he probably hadn't thought about the possibility of someone finding it and, after all, Potter had to find horcruxes before the Finale - he probably wouldn't if it was somewhere else.

    I'd say that Rowling wanted to make him appear more powerful and scary, so she just gave him ability to fly, or she just watched too much of Dragonball. xD

    Don't know, don't care, but we have to remember that the whole scene happened inside Potter's head, so maybe it was his common sense or logic - it'd explain why in the hell he knocked up Ginslut three times.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2007
  7. Solomon

    Solomon Heir

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    2,744
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Hahah, worded that way, it certainly does make a hell of a lot of sense that it is. God only knows how many times his basic logic and common sense got thrown out the window throughout this series; it makes perfect sense that it would be a small, shriveled, very dead child-like thing.
     
  8. QuaziJoe

    QuaziJoe Dolphin Boy

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,651
    Location:
    The Other Surrey
    1. How did the Sword return to the Hat, when Griphook had it last?

    - This is my guess, more like a amusing theory....What if Gryfhook was bull shitting Harry. The goblins in the series were never the warm and caring teddy bears, they were cheating swindling jack asses.

    Bill gave harry the nice little talk about goblins being angry bitches when they think they've been swindled... but that was just a stupid thing on Bills part. Oh by the way harry... that little guy thats been perving around the house... he'll cut yea and wear your liver as a hat. Just thought you should be reminded that before you do whatever it is your going to do today...

    I've gotten off track.. but my initial theory was that what if the sword was co created. Gryffindor did some work and the goblins did some work. The goblins wanted it back but Gryffindor passed it on cause thats just the way he wanted it. The little toads aren't magically bound to tell the truth... and they've already proven themselves to be sneaky little kreature wanna be's; is it so far fetched to believe gryffhook lied, simply to get the sword for himself?

    If gryffindor co created the sword he probably put on his own spells that the goblins wouldn't have known about. Linking the sword to the hat and vice versa, and I doubt the goblins made that thing.

    Gryffindor was said to be one of the four greatest wizards of the time... I'm sure he could have done some nifty hat tricks... Maybe the thing even pulls bunnies out of itself...

    2. Gringotts is the safest ....

    -Gringotts fabled protection was crap. It was like Azkaban's no breakouts record...

    They are decent... and maybe even slightly impressive, but to the suitably desperate wizard.... there's always a way.

    I'm not even going to comment on Harry's invisibility cloak cause that just a cop out to use it to bypass the plot hole.

    I think the hardest thing really would be to get past the lobby... Then you just imperio the goblin driving and get them to do whatever.

    Ignoring the high security vaults... you could just order the little dude to take you to a bunch of smaller vaults and have him open them up for you. Order the goblin to tell you any booby traps and then dispose of him or her and walk on your merry way.

    harry hermione and ron only got caught because of being caught... so I think it is entirely possible. I mean they even helped a dragon break through a stone wall to escape... clearly you can find other exits.

    Invest muggle, use actual banks... atleast that way if shits stolen they're responsible. I can't see the goblins being willing to pay you back.

    3. George's ear was severed by Sectumsempra, dark curse so couldn't be reattached. But Snape fixed up Malfoy easy enough after Harry cut him up?

    -Honestly... I think George's ear could have been healed or atleast partially. Molly's not a healer, she doesn't know everything.... maybe she just couldn't heal the thing herself. I'm surprised she didn't freak out and try and take him to the hospital regardless of the risks.

    4. Voldemort believed he was the only one smart enough to find the RoR to hide something. How can he, when there was centuries of stuff hidden inside?

    -The room and Voldemort are a gigantic plot hole... for no other reason than he must have known already that malfoy had found the room since thats where all the death eaters came through the previous year.

    Through malfoy he should know that Harry found the room originally. Even Filch th Squib found the thing.... Voldemort is fairly stupid in cannon. It's only fanon that he ever has a chance to rock...

    5. How exactly did Voldemort and even Snape fly? (this pisses me of to no end.):confused:

    -The broom theory sounds plausible... maybe even some complicated wingardium. Maybe Voldemort just created a new spell, or did what lilly did and controlled his magic to allow for it.

    The flying thing was crap, when you got apparition or portkey's flying is just boasting. It has it's obvious uses... apparently since voldemort could travel at speeds normal wizards can't on brooms... but he could probably get their faster through a series of apparition jumps. Then fly from there if he is so desperate to make an entrance.

    Maybe Voldemort just drank the wizarding version of red bull?

    6. While the trio was escaping on the dragon and blasting off walls, couldn't one of them have summoned the sword from Griphook?

    -I thought that too. The sword was their only safe way of destroying the horcuxes... atleast in harry's mind. It should have been just as important as getting the horcux. I'm surpised he didn't try and stun gryffhook or give chase if summoning wasn't an option.

    And summoning a sword sounds like a bad idea... Flying death...

    7. Was the shrivelled child in Kings Cross Voldemort's soul?

    -That seemed obvious.... I'm thinking it's a repeat of book fours fetus from hell.

    Here's a question... If it's so easy to cast those shields around themselves to go undetected... Why didn't they do that for harry or hermione and let them practice magic... If anything it would have prevented the whole trial thing they were expecting.

    I think they were expecting it... i believe some one said that dumbledore was afraid something like this might happen.
     
  9. Antivash

    Antivash Until we meet again... DLP Supporter Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,957
    Location:
    Ghost Planet
    nein. it says he hid it there when he came to get the job.

    Its just one of those continuity failings.
     
  10. 007_rock

    007_rock DA Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2007
    Messages:
    158
    Location:
    Cochin
    Quazi, I didn't get that shield thing you mentioned. Where exactly was it?

    Also, Demon's response about Harry's cloak being special reminded me of that question. So here is another,

    8. Harry's cloak can make user absolutely invisible, faultlessly. Then how did Dumbledore and even fake Moody see through this famed Hallow?
     
  11. cucio

    cucio Guest

    I have yet another question. We are talking about multi-gajillion dollar editors here. How come none of them put a stop to all this insanity?

    I, for one, think that Luna is more of a JKR's self insertion than Hermione: blonde, brilliant but, blimey!, batty beyond barminess.

    But I refuse to believe that no professional editor saw all the shit we are spotting here, so why he/she went along with it? Because JKR will sell no matter the shit she craps?
     
  12. jbern

    jbern Alba Mater

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,100
    Location:
    Virginia
    Well if your looking for more questions how about

    9. In HBP, Greyback was able to cross the DE barrier up to the Astronomy Tower which supposedly you would only be able to cross if you had a Dark Mark. In DH, Greyback doesn't have one? Poor Greyback - In HBP he was such a player. The mere mention of his name by Draco made the shop owner quiver in fear. In DH, he's the leader of a band of Snatchers - basically Dog the Bounty Hunter.

    10. Since we're talking about HBP, I'm hard pressed to recall Harry having any visions during the book. Yet in DH Voldievison(tm) returned with an all new lineup and Harry got hooked up with the pay per view special. Doesn't this strike anyone else as odd?

    Jim
     
  13. KenderCleric

    KenderCleric Lord of Plot Bunnies

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    Messages:
    652
    Location:
    Terra Atlantus
    In CoS when the Hat arrives via Fawkes the sword is not inside it. It took the moment of desperate need for the sword to appear. It was the need of a Gryffindor putting his life on the line for another.

    Later, the sword came to Ron when he was putting his life on the line (jumping into the frozen lake) to save another's life (Harry's) and he desperately needed the means to break the locket's chain.

    When the sword appears in the hat it is again at a moment when a Gryffindor was putting his life on the line for others. Neville had been told by Harry that Naginii had to die. He was desperate and a lot of people's lives were on the line. His loyalty to Harry also, I believe, was a factor.

    From these three events we can safely assume that the sword was enchanted by Godric Gryffindor at some point after the Goblin's made it. The sword has some sort of conditional summoning charm. The hat is linked to the sword by their connection to Godric I would assume.

    We knew from book 1 that Gringot's fabled security wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Quirrell managed to sneak in and even get inside a vault that didn't use a key like most others. I think that it's safe to believe the security of the Bank has more to do with perception of the Goblins, and the unknown. If you don't really know what protections block your path you are less likely to attempt to bypass them.

    The issue of the Goblins, I believe, also plays into it. After the many wars between Goblins and Humans the books describe it's safe to say the animosity runs pretty high. Bankers they may be, but as shown in canon they've got a rather odd view on the world and are a proud race. They're collective ego would have them make the protections on their bank sound far better than they were.

    Draco Malfoy didn't have any body parts removed. He was simply slashed up. Even the worst cuts on Mad-Eye were healable; they just left wicked scars that wouldn't heal. With Mad-Eye and Harry's curse scar as evidence we can believe that Draco too had some scars that would never heal.

    A portion of Mad-Eye's nose and his leg were not replaceable due to the effects of Dark Magic. I believe that this and the scar issue can lead us to believe that Dark Magic has a somewhat cauterizing effect on tissue. The normal healing methods of spells and what-not are neutralized or left mostly ineffectual.

    How did Harry learn about the RoR? Dobby. The elf told him that the room had been used by Elves for as long as memory served. Harry also knew about the room from Dumbledore. Hell, even Sybill knew about the room.

    Obviously the room wasn't safe from other people knowing, but lets look at the situation differently.

    Voldemort believed himself to be a true master of all things Magical. Finding a room, that in his days at Hogwarts, seemed to be totally unknown would play into his ego big time. A magical room that provided him the hiding space he needed? Surely only the mightly Lord Voldemort could find this hidden place.

    The clutter in the room would be explained away in his ego-riddled (ha) mind as centuries old and unimportant, but would help hide something precious to him.

    Now fast forward to Harry's time. Draco's use of the room should have been a give way to Voldemort. It wasn't, however, because Draco never mattered to Voldemort. He didn't expect Draco to accomplish his missions. He never spoke to Draco during the mission. Aside from that there would be no reason to mention the RoR in Draco's report. He would certainly tell of the Vanishing cabinet, and possibly report that it was in a room of broken things (as he calls it I believe in DH). Neither of these would warn Voldemort his room had been found.

    As to Voldemort having heard that Harry was using the room; again why would he have heard that? He might have heard Harry was holding secret meetings in an unknown location. That's nice, Hogwarts has a lot of empty space and secret passageways. There would be no reason for Voldemort to equate the magical room that HE found to a secret location Potter used. After all, Potter is just a lucky 17 year old brat.

    J.K. Rowling does an excellent job throughout the series of showing that Voldemort's ultimate folly is his ego. Time and time again he has made elementary mistakes that all could have been avoided if he considered possibilities his ego blocked.

    Voldemort, many times throughout the series, is credited with having done things with magic no others could do. We know he traveled the world and came back a changed man. Thus, it is safe to believe that he either a) created a spell to allow self-flight, b) discovered a long-forgotten spell to allow self-flight, or c) created/found an object that could be kept on the person to allow self-flight.

    The exact method used isn't clear, but what is clear that only Voldemort and Snape were ever known to be able to fly. This makes it clear that self-flight is something rare and obscure, and most likely a Dark Art. This is just another example of Voldemort's power.

    As to why he would fly? Well it safe to say that Voldemort combines the two. In fact, the book says he does. When traveling long distances he will fly between points where he can apparate. Also, the book hints that he had apparated to Nurmengard. Then he flew to the tower. We can believe this was a method of bypassing Anti-apparition wards; thus we have another reason for him to use flight.

    Before the question rises we can believe his flight bypasses anti-apparition wards, but NOT others. This is proven when the wards around the Tonks home blocked him. He also could not fly into Hogwarts. I don't think this is a limit so much on the ability to fly as Voldemort himself though.

    The sword can't be summoned except under specific conditions as described above. Harry wasn't able to summon the Sword in the lake, but he was able to clearly see where it was. Think about it for a moment. It was the sort of Godric Gryffindor and it's safe to believe he used it. Why would he want a sword that could be summoned out of his hand? It's fairly clear that the sword is spelled to resist summoning charms just like numerous other objects were in the books.

    All signs point to yes on this. Dumbledore's words that it was beyond help, the appearance, and the fact that when Harry awoke Voldemort too had passed out. We never get anything beyond those points as confirmation however.

    Thanks to book 7 we have a better understanding of these two spells. The Confounding charm implants suggestions that the target's mind accepts. It "overrides" the truth so to speak. The Obliviate spell, however, destroys the memory to the point where it can not be recovered without damaging the mind.

    Thus, Hermione confounded her parents and implanted the suggestion that they were different people, had no daughter, and wanted to move to Australia. Had she obliviated them, they would not have had a knew identity and she would never have gotten her parents back.

    We don't know exactly what Dumbledore and Moody "saw". Remember that while all visual traces are gone there are still other things that can give someone away. We know both Dumbledore and Moody are sharp minded so they are the most likely to pick up on these other signs. Also, we are never told that Albus or Moody's eye can see through the cloak. Harry assumes they can for various reasons.

    Footprints, breathing, extra tea-cups, misplaced items, footsteps, blocked or altered air flows (think of someone standing in front of a fan you know is blowing), and many many more. These are all signs that both Dumbledore and Moody (fake and real) would be able to catch.

    As to the specific issue of the block on the Tower I think it's safe to say that is a plot hole. As to Greyback's "demotion" don't kid yourself. He was, and still is, feared due to his barbaric and animalistic nature, but he was never respected by the Death Eaters. He's a half-breed monster to them; something lower than a mudblood. He was used by the Death Eaters as a tool, and that's all he would ever have been.

    In the opening chapters of HBP Dumbledore informs Harry that he believes that Voldemort is the one blocking out his visions. He doesn't want to risk Harry getting in like he had before; not when the risk vs. reward ratio isn't in his favor at least. Also, Voldemort and the Death Eater's weren't doing a whole lot other than planning and positioning in HBP. A few murders, a bridge, and some Giant attacks that all went in Voldemort's favor. There was never anything to get Voldemort riled up.

    Now in DH things are far, far more active. Voldemort's frustration is getting the better of him everytime a report of failure comes through regarding Potter. The wand issue had him livid that once again he had been foiled due to a wand complication. His mental block on the connection slipped for a brief moment.

    His search for the Elder wand saw his emotions and frustrations running high from time to time, and thus lowered his blocks on the connection.

    The apparent loss of a Horcrux obviously shattered his self-control a bit.

    All in all it goes back to what we discovered in book 5. When Voldemort's emotions are running on high, Harry will know or have a vision. We also have the indication that the bond gerw stronger throughout Harry's 5th year eventually leading to Voldemort being able to possess him. Yet, Voldemort discovered that the idea of possession was a bad one, and he had played out his vision-manipulation hand. Thus, the link was virtually useless to him. In year 7, however, his thoughts aren't on the connection as much as the war and his mounting failures against Potter.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2007
  14. ip82

    ip82 Prisoner

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
    Messages:
    2,921
    Wow, JKR doesn't have to think through anything, when she has fans like you bending over backwards to explain her screwups... :)
     
  15. KenderCleric

    KenderCleric Lord of Plot Bunnies

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    Messages:
    652
    Location:
    Terra Atlantus
    It's not bending over backward to think anything up. It's called deductive reasoning based on evidence provided. Read the damn books for god's sake. If people spent even half a minute to consider what they read then these things would be clear. Instead, they like to cry over how nothing made sense to them and Harry wasn't a magical god-like figure.

    It's so much easier just to complain and scream "PLOT HOLE" that it is to stop for a minute and use your brain isn't it? None of the answers I provided were anything out of left field. They were all based on what is in canon from all 7 books. That's how these things have to be viewed...as a whole. You can't just look at book 7 by itself and say "well that didn't make sense at all" because it's not a stand-alone work. Everything has built to that point, but it still doesn't hand you the answers on a silver platter.

    Were there screw ups in book 7? Yes, I believe there were. Hell, I've pointed a few out both here and in my review. However, a lot of what people seem to by pointing to and screaming foul over are not. These plot elements simply require a smidgen of brain power to reason through. I mean for fuck's sake is it really that hard to figure out why Harry couldn't summon the sword from Griphook? No it's fucking not. Half the shit he'd tried to summon in book 7 couldn't be because of anti-summoning charms - including the god-damn sword. How fucking hard is it to figure that out?


    *Note that the use of the term "you" in this post is meant as an all-inclusinve term. Anyone who is an idiot and can't tell the difference between a plot hole and something that requires a moment of thought to understand should consider themselves included in the "you" of this post.

    Feel free to negrep, flame, insult, etc. I really couldn't care less. This has gotten to be so pathetic I expect it. People are so inclined to follow the "cool people" into disliking the book that they've stopped thinking for themselves. If you don't like the book that's perfectly fine; in fact it's great! Opposition is always welcome as it helps people think their way through their own opinions. However, using half thought out examples as evidence of your opinion is not the best way to go about things.

    Rather than flying off the handle and claiming "PLOT HOLE" instantly when you don't understand something isn't a strong basis for an opinion. Stop for a moment and consider how the issue fits into the context of all 7 books. 9 out of 10 times I'd be willing to bet that you could figure out fairly easily what the answer to your question is without it being a plot hole.
     
  16. Anlun

    Anlun Denarii Host

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    633
    Location:
    Florida
    I'll first post my questions and then try and answer yours


    1)What happened to Hagrid? Last I left he was being swarmed by spiders?

    2) What happened to the room that couldn't be opened? you know the uber important one

    3) What happened to Fortescue? I know this isn't that important but she did explain what happened to Ollivander

    4) WTF is the veil? Obviously it kills you but some back story would of been nice.
    _________________________________________________________________



    1. How did the Sword return to the Hat, when Griphook had it last?


    This is a good question and one which I think has a crappy answer. Most likely the hat and the sword have some sort of connection (probably done by gryffindor) wherein the hat can call for the sword if needed. My belief is that the sword has no true owner, except for the hat since the hat belonged to Gryffindor.

    2. 'Gringots is the safest place to keep something safe, except maybe Hogwarts' If all you had to do was Imperio a couple of goblins (remember Harry was doing it for the first time) to access any vault, how can you that its so safe? They were discovered because they were in disguise, but under normal circumstances its unnecessary.


    I think the safety of Gringotts comes more from protecting money then actual objects. Take the protections on the vaults. Everything doubles and burns you, and the doubles are worthless. This is a pretty good protection for money, since someone trying to steal a bunch of gold wouldn't be able to. As for objects it doesn't work out so well. Someone wanting one single object has an easier time. Now DH clearly explains that the reason Quirrel broke in so easily in PS is that since the vault was guarding a single object it had weak defenses.

    3. George's ear was severed by Sectumsempra, dark curse so couldn't be reattached. But Snape fixed up Malfoy easy enough after Harry cut him up?


    Again I think this comes with who is saying this. Snape knows his stuff. He is well versed in both Dark Arts and Defense against them. Remember he was the one who contained Voldemorts curse to Dumbledore's hand, so that Dumbledore could at least live for a year. I don't think it's too hard to imagine that he could heal the ear.

    4. Voldemort believed he was the only one smart enough to find the RoR to hide something. How can he, when there was centuries of stuff hidden inside?

    Vodemort's ego. This book and the last try and explain that Voldemort seeks to be unique, and special. So upon discovering a room filled with objects I would guess that he just figured they were there to begin with. Even if it is stupid logic, he would reason it out to make him seem more unique.

    5. How exactly did Voldemort and even Snape fly? (this pisses me of to no end.)

    I thought this was a bit contradictory to canon (as it has been said that wizards can't fly on their own) but I found it pretty cool. There is really no explanation for it, other then Voldemort mastered magic none had ever mastered before, and thus discovered the secret of flight. A secret he told only to Snape apparently.

    6. While the trio was escaping on the dragon and blasting off walls, couldn't one of them have summoned the sword from Griphook?

    The sword can't be summoned

    7. Was the shriveled child in Kings Cross Voldemort's soul?


    The shrivelled child was indeed the representation of Voldemort's soul. It manifested as child to show how he fears death so much. Proof of this lies in what happened after this scene. When they both wake up (notice they were both asleep) it was said that Voldemort was convulsing, just as the child was.
     
  17. Hahukum Konn

    Hahukum Konn Fourth Year

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    123
    Question.

    What did "Remember my last" actually mean? What was in the letter Dumbledore left with Harry in 1981?
     
  18. KenderCleric

    KenderCleric Lord of Plot Bunnies

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    Messages:
    652
    Location:
    Terra Atlantus
    This, I do believe, is one of the most blatant of the true Plot Holes. Like you said, the last we saw of him he was being swarmed under by Aragog's children. Next, he's tied to a tree back in the Acromantula nest. Unless I missed it there was no indication anywhere of when, how, or why he was taken prisoner and moved there.




    I wondered this myself. Looking back the only thing we ever read about the room is that Harry tries to break in using the knife from Sirius, but can't. Then later Dumbledore and Harry are discussing the prophecy...
    "...He did not know that you would have 'power the Dark Lord knows not' -"​
    "But I don't!" said Harry in a strangled voice. "I haven't any powers he hasn't got, I couldn't fight the way he did tonight, I can't possess people or - or kill them -"​
    "There is a room in the Department of Mysteries," interrupted Dumbledore, "that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."​
    -Order of the Phoenix, US paperback edition, pages 843 & 844

    As these are the only two mentions of the room we can't really determine much. Given what we now know from book 7 I think it is safe to assume JKR was simply using this as a way to show Harry's love for others as being his power that the Dark Lord knows not.


    This is fairly well backed up when Harry's love for his friends and desire to protect them leads him to sacrifice himself. His "death", much as his mother's, put a protection from Voldemort on those Harry "died" for. Hence the reason, as stated later in book 7, why Voldemort's spells weren't having the same effect on his victims as usual.

    I'm not sure we ever got any real answer. He was suspected of having been drug off by the Death Eaters, but even that wasn't fact. I'd guess he was killed or went into hiding. We'll most likely never know.

    The only backstory I think we ever got on this was that it was ancient looking. The fact that it was in the DoM would seem to indicate it was under study by the Unspeakables, but past that who knows. I'm not entirely sure that it was ever meant as more than a way to a) kill Sirius, and b) introduce Harry's doubts about his godfather's demise. Those doubts then lead to Harry's conversations with Sir Nick and Luna which, in turn, gave Harry a better understand of Death.

    I guess you could call it a loose end of sorts. Perfect for fanfiction though. :)

    EDIT:
    From Order of the Phoenix, US Paperback edition, page 836...

    "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort. He shed her blood, but it lives on in you and her sister. Her blood became your refuge. You need return there only once a year, but as long as you can still call it home, there he cannot hurt you. Your aunt knows this. I explained what I had done in the letter I left, with you, on her doorstep. She knows that allowing you houseroom may well have kept you alive for the past fifteen years."​


    "Wait," said Harry. "Wait a moment."​


    He sat up straighter in his chair, staring at Dumbledore.​


    "You sent that Howler. You told her to remember - it was your voice-"​


    "I thought," said Dumbledore, inclining his head slightly, "that she might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you. I suspected the dementor attack might have awoken her to the dangers of having you as a surrogate son."​
    This confirms that the phrase "remember my last" was a reminder to the first letter and the protections conditions. His aunt had agreed to take him in and thus sealed the protections. Dumbledore was reminding her that should she kick him out the protection would fall.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2007
  19. Nox

    Nox First Year

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2007
    Messages:
    20
    Why didn't Harry just AK that shield to kill Nagini?
     
  20. QuaziJoe

    QuaziJoe Dolphin Boy

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,651
    Location:
    The Other Surrey
    I think Jk's answer for why harry never used the AK is because she made the consequences of splitting your soul too vague.

    snape somehow managed not too when he killed dumbledore... but harry's would have been damaged if he had tried...

    It's crappy logic but it makes the most sense...

    Plus Aking Voldemrt or nagini or any of the horcruxes would have been too easy.
     
Loading...