Wait, that's like, my point.

 

I perhaps misunderstood. It sounded as if you suggested that inside, Dumbledore is emotionally driven personality. I see him more logical (more cold?) than that, but acknowledge your point that his thought process might be heavily tarnished by his guilt, mistakes and his attempts to hide it from himself.

I didn't mean to sound like I expect him to "just shrug off the bad things, because he's intelligent".

---

Also, the word "angst" wasn't my attempt to simplify your point, but rather my somewhat limited knowledge of english. Sorry.

 

No matter his emotional state, his canon actions are stupid, and incompatible with being a powerful, experienced wizards and politician. His plans were idiotic, and criminal, and immoral. He may be many things, but wise or competent he is not.

 

Care to share which exact action of Dumbledore you consider idiotic and immoral. He might have done some actions that are criminal, like aiding and abetting a fugitive, but idiotic and immoral?

I think what you're doing is assuming way too many things that are not exactly canon, fitting them to Dumbledore's known actions, or using future knowledge to skew the perception of a past actions.

If you made your decisions purely on known canon facts at the time the decisions were made, and not speculations, I doubt you'd reach the same conclusions.

 

Canon:

Fist year:

He protects Snape "teaching" children, allowing that scumbag to bully students (to the point of becoming Neville's greatest fear), innocents kids, for supposed faults of their parents, protecting the bullies among his students, and cheating to make them win the House Cup, making a mockery of the rules of the school.

He uses his school as a trap for a Dark Lord, endangering every student in there. Willingly and knowingly. And yet he seems incapable to deal with Quirell even after having sufficient reason to check, until three stidents almost die.

He uses a broom to travel to London, instead of apparating or flooing, and therefore removes his ability to respond at once to an emergecny he is expecting. He did not instruct his subordinate correctly to inform him of any new development - like kids knowing about the Stone.

Second Year:

According to Pottermore, he hired Lockhart with the goal to expose him as a fraud - amaging the student's education in the process, and endangering them again due to that man's incompetence.

He was incabale to find out what the beast of Slytherin was when a 13 year old was able to. He was unable to create a working detection system - not even with hundreds of elves and portraits able to patrol the School.

He either was too stupid to realize Harry got ostracized by the whole school and taken for the heir of Slytherin, or ignored it. A word from him, greatest wizard of the time, would have been enough to avoid that.

He did not take any measures to deal with Malfoy, after it was clear that the man tried to kill all muggleborn children at his School, at a point where Dumbledore was the still undisputed leader of Wizarding Britain and had Fudge's ear. His word alone would have been enough to get Malfoy arrested, people wanted the one responsible for endangering their children caught and punished.

That's just two years. A few highlights from the rest:
He didn't realize that his old friend was replaced by a death eater for an entire year.
His order to isolate Harry after the traumatic events of the years 4 and 5 clearly shows he is inept. That's not how you treat children.
His inexplicable refusal to provide his chosen Champion against Voldemort with all the needed Information - instead using cryptic remarks and weird gifts - is another sign of his utter stupidity. And no, he could have had someone he trusted pass the items to Harry and co. easily, bypassing the Minisitry.
Another utter failure was his waste of his last year of life to teach Harry things about Voldemort anyone could have learned in an afternoon.
Having his order guard a prophecy only Harry (who didn't know) and Voldemort (who the order could not stop) could even touch, almsot costing the life of two order members, was another sign of senility or incompetence.

 

What exactly is competing with an intimidating teacher for Neville's greatest fear here? He's a child. Snape cuts a menacing figure, and is a harsh teacher. Not exactly hard for him to become a nervous child's 'greatest fear'.

Fanon. He was keeping the Stone safe for Flamel, not as bait for Riddle. Nor did he steal it from Flamel. Nor did he keep a fake in the Mirror while the real one was safe in his sock draw. Nor did he implant suggestions via Legilimancy to encourage Harry to seek it out. Nor did--you get the picture.

As far as I can remember, it was never stated in the books that he used a broom to fly to London. Also consider that Apparition and Portkeys hadn't been conceived of yet. Taure, is that correct?

Pottermore. 'Nuff said.

Childs story. How interesting do you think it would be if the powerful elder figure was used to solve every little mystery in the series? On a more practical level, Dumbledore was a wizard, had been part of the Wizarding World since birth, and was rather set in his ways of thinking. It was a muggle born who puzzled out the solution.

How is the social situation of a student his responsibility? Harry obviously wasn't suffering mentally from it, nor was he being cursed in the halls. Bullying happens - and this was a British boarding school. Added to that, consider the reaction from other students if Dumbledore had stood up one morning and told everyone to stop being mean to Harry. You think they're going to nod and do as he says like lemmings?

So what, he's going to go to the Ministry and say, "It was him! I know he did it! Arrest him!"

No, Lucius would be all like, "Nah man, it wasn't me. What proof did he give you? Here, have another campaign donation."

Fudge would have gone back to Dumbledore and said, "Yo bro, can you give me some evidence? My peeps say I can't throw someone like Malfoy in jail like that."

And then Albus would have gone, "Shit son, I can't exactly give you evidence, but it totally fits. One of my twelve year old students figured it out. Some next level Sherlock Holmes mind palace shit right there homie."

How much direct contact did he have with Moody? You think Dumbledore kept a regular look out for Polyjuice imposters? Seems mighty...Vigilant of him.

Nah man, he totally should have included the teenager who might have a link to the Dark Lord in his head in all their planning sessions. But yeah, he should have at least let his friends mail him--just gotta read everything they send first, because of their habit of eavesdropping on all the meetings they can get their Ears into.

Chosen Champion. Lawl.

But yeah, he totally should have said all Harry had to do to defeat Voldemort was die. Cause pre empting him from coming to this realisation himself totally wouldn't have fucked with the protection such a selfless gesture bestowed.

I'm not sure if you read the books, but the meetings they had pretty clearly took numerous evening to pass along. Bit longer than an afternoon, there...

Cause yeah, the Order was there to guard specifically against Voldemort. The guy who was hiding from the Ministry because he didn't want to tip his hand. The guy whose biggest mistake that year was coming to the Ministry in person. Yeah...

I think you need to stop viewing Dumbledore through bad fanfic tinted glasses. Sure, there are a bunch of little bits and pieces he could have done that would have been 'smarter', but the Harry Potter series is for children, and Albus isn't the protagonist.

 

Haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate.

 

Edit: was slowly writing this up, and TWT has a decent response before me, but some of this is still valid.

Here, have some food.

Snape is a bad person, an (arguably) bad teacher, but he is one of the best potion makers. Arguments could be made that he's simply one of the strictest teachers, and it is not unknown for children to fear harsh and strict professors/teachers to the point of irrational fear.
His personal vendetta with Harry is were he crosses the line somewhat, but I always guessed that Dumbledore simply hoped that Snape would get over it given time and space.
At the same time, if Dumbledore would have stepped in, forcing Snape to treat Harry differently (more leniently), it would have reduced the already small chance of natural reconciliation even further.

Also, same as with Dursley's abuse, Snape was made into a looming figure of childish fears, with the similar intention of making his flaws stand out a lot more.

Snape himself is a whole topic on itself, but the main point here is that Dumbledore would have stepped in if it got bad, and it never did. Whatever you say about Snape, he was enforcing his punishments completely within the school rules.

And surprisingly enough it might even have worked, had not the three Gryffindors decided to go there when it's forbidden (if you believe it's a trap, then it mustn't have been in his design to let any student go there.*). At the same time, Dumbledore knew Voldemort wouldn't act openly, so technically there was minimal direct danger for any of the staff nor the students.

Harry and Dumbledore also use brooms when they head out to deal with the fake Horcrux in the cave. To take them past the anti-apparition whatever it is Hogwarts has.

Mind that this is the first book, and we didn't know he even had the other methods available.

It's surprising, but at the same time a very Dumbledore way of handling a problem. Hiring Lockhart was a lesson both for him and the students - the students had to learn not to trust anyone who boasts, and Lockhart had to face his inability to teach. Had he not been as self absorbed he could have realised his own folly by himself.

It's not the best academical decision, but I don't think Dumbledore though much would be lost. It was unfair for NEWT and OWL level students, but they could have learned from books at the very least.

It's a tough point to defend against unless you factor in the fact that he still didn't have a good teacher available for the subject if he rejected Lokhart's resume (except Snape) (I'm guessing it took the danger of Sirius Black to convince Remus to come and teach a class)

He was removed as a Headmaster when Hermione made her discovery. I'd assume he could have made similar reasonings, but we'll never know.

Also, remember, children's books, adults have to be less competent.

That worked so well on the Fifth year. I also suspect it wasn't as bad - again, highlighted for literary reasons.

No proof. It is Barty Crouch who trows people in jail without a trial, not Dumbledore. Also, Malfoy still has a lot of sway and the legal battle wouldn't necessarily have been won.

Everyone is an 'old friend' when you're 150. Moody was a good choice to replace, since his paranoia helped to move attention everywhere else but at Moody.

To be fair, Dumbledore has no moral obligation to send a teenage Harry to a child psychologist. He never ordered isolation, he simply didn't let anyone write down Order of the Phoenix in Harry's mail on fourth year, and Harry wasn't isolated after the fifth year any more than any other time.

There's a scene at the end of the fith book, remember?

This is about the seventh year? He did leave the sword to Snape to deliver. And he did.

He was teaching him about Voldemort, and things he collected about him that lead up to the choices of Horcruxes and their possible connections to him. All relevant and not as easy to get as spending an afternoon.

He only had them watching the prophecy.
The guard only had to alert the ministry, and thus prove Voldemort was truly back, rather than fight him directly.
This move to protect the prophecy effectively made Voldemort think it even more important. And he wasted valuable preparation time trying to get the little useless orb.



*Then again, as TWT points out, the trap is a fanon concept.

 

First of all, he needs to keep Snape close, and the only way he can do that is by offering him a position at school. While Snape is a horrible person in general, he is a necessity in the war. There's nothing stupid about hiring him and the morality could be debated since Dumbledore trusted Snape not to harm any students, and he was right. In fact, Snape is known to have protected students.

This is speculation. There isn't anything to suggest that Dumbledore knew that the Dark Lord was in the school at all until the very end. Do keep in mind that Quirrel had been a teacher at Hogwarts in the past and was not known to be a supporter of Voldemort.

This is purely speculation. Where in canon is it stated that Dumbledore used a broom? Even if he did, Quirrel (and consequently Voldemort) believes that he would be done by the time Dumbledore got back, which suggests that he manufactured a good enough emergency that would keep Dumbledore occupied.

This is more a case of considering Voldemort smart, rather than Dumbledore stupid.

I don't believe anything outside of the actual books to be Canon, but since you do, I'll give you this one.

He was not a Parselmouth, and had no obvious reason to guess that the monster is a type of a Snake, which was one of the main pieces of evidence that allowed Hermionie to narrow it down. Hermionie had a reason to guess it (since she knew Harry heard voices). It had nothing to do with being 13, but rather Hermionie having more information than Dumbledore did.

I am, of course, assuming that you don't believe Dumbledore to be omniscient.

Another speculation. First of all, there is nothing to suggest that a word from Dumbledore would have changed anything. Secondly, these are children we're talking about. Finally, it didn't work in fifth year, but that is in the future.

It's not a question of whether he did take any measures or not, but whether he had the evidence to do so. Malfoy was a powerful man, and Dumbledore did not have any evidence to prove his guilt. What measures could he take?

It would also have been immoral of him trying to use his influence to get Malfoy arrested on mere speculation. Do remember that it was only Harry's word, and even Harry had never seen Malfoy giving Tom Riddle's diary to Ginny, but had extrapolated it from what he had actually seen.

This assumes incompetence on the part of Barty Crouch Junior, which I'm guessing comes from the movies. There is nothing in canon that suggests that. All it says is that Crouch managed to emulate Moody well.

Aren't you reaching a bit with this? Dumbledore didn't try to isolate Harry. Hermionie and Ron did communicate with him just fine. What they couldn't do was discuss thing that were secret. If Harry was more interested in knowing those things, it's not Dumbledore's fault for not allowing it. In fact, Harry was even getting the Prophet. It's his own idiocy that made him not read the pages beyond the front page.

More precisely, Harry was doing what a teenager would do, and Dumbledore was doing what a responsible adult would.

You are again assuming that Dumbledore knew everything, which he didn't. He gave Harry the most important facts about what needed to be done, that is, destroy the Horcruxes. If Dumbledore knew what each Horcrux was, and where they were, don't you think he'd have destroyed them himself?

That's the difference between teaching and dumping information. Dumbledore was teaching Harry, and like any good teacher, he gave the information in small pieces that Harry could process and think over.

You see, the problem with this is that you forget that Voldemort didn't know that the only people that could touch the prophecy were himself and Harry, despite having an ex-Unspeakable Death Eater. Dumbledore might not be protecting just the prophecy, but also the knowledge that only he and Harry could touch it from getting out, which might have resulted in Voldemort sneaking into the DOM himself.

 

This is basically the answer to everything, in the end:

 

Exactly, and none of those pieces make Dumbledore stupid or immoral. It just makes him 'not omniscient'.

 

I know, I was answering golan, Starfox and jZab, didn't see you posted after them. Really good post by the way,

 

A teacher who becomes a child's greatest fear is a failure as a teacher and as a human being.

If Dumbledore had wanted to keep the stone safe, he'd have cast the Fidelius.

The "Plot needed it" is no excuse. And if he is so stuck in his ways of thinking to miss something a 12 year old can find out, then he is not even near as skilled as he is made out to be.

He shoud have told them "Harry is not the heir of slytherin". That would have been the act of a decent teacher, and decent human being. And yes, as the headmaster it was his responsibility to make sure such incidents would not happen. That's a School afraid of a monster, where every Student carries a lethal weapon. Letting them suspect Harry was a danger.

Exactly.

And Dumbledore would have said "Enough to probe your mind." We have the house elf, we have the pensieve memories of when you slipped it into the cauldron. We will have your memories.

And Dumbledore, greatest wizard of his time, vanquisher of Grindelwald, says: "Fudge. I'll tell the press it was Malfoy who tried to get all their children killed. You can either be the Minister putting down that Monster, or the one who is trying to protect him."

Moody was an order member. And a teacher. And had access to the Cup. Not figuring out an imposter for a whole year is simply stupid.

Leaving Harry in the dark, without even an Explanation for the reasons? Stupid. Harry likely would have understood the need for secrecy.

Fuck teh protection and selflessness. Voldemort didn't have to die at all. He could have been caught and sent to Nuremgard, or otherwise contained.

Wasted time. The actual Information of the meetings we saw could have been summed up in a few lines each - even Voldemort's entire life could have been taught in a weekend. That's how long you need to read a biography.

He had people "guarding" the prophecy who were not even hidden from Nagini. How could such idiots alert the ministry in case the actual Voldemort showed up? Yeah, good plan. Almost as good as the traps to keep Voldemort away in 1st year.

If Albus was forced into being stupid so Harry could shine that means he was stupid in canon.

 

Maybe you're right there. But Snape's competence as a potion's instructor was never in doubt. And we've discussed this before but nothing he did warranted him getting fired. That is not even considering his usefulness as a spy.

I'm not quite sure how the Fidelius works but in canon it was used to hide people not inanimate objects. An argument can be made about its feasability to protect the stone.
Even then the protection around the stone wasn't insubstantial at all. He made sure that the only person who could get the stone was one who wouldn't use it making sure it was kept out of Voldemort's reach even if he got to the mirror.

If you're gonna ignore earlier posts its going to be hard to argue with you. It has already been said that Dumbledore didn't have all the facts. He didn't know Harry's status as a parselmouth or the fact that he could hear the monster. Two bira of information Hermione had to put two and two together.

Even if he did that how would that have helped except making him an even bigger target as Dumbledore's pet. Keep in mind kids aren't rational beings. Dumbledore's interference might have made matters worse.

First off you've overestimated the status of house elves in the Wizarding World. No one will take the word of a free house-elf over a pureblood scion's. As for taking his memories. If I have to argue why that is wrong it is futile to have this discussion.

Without proof, just strongarming someone into following your way. Yeah sure why not.

A competent villain? How is that possible?

This point has been reiterated a dozen times by a dozen people. He had an unfiltered access to Voldemort's mind and vice versa. Keeping him out of the loop was for security reasons.

Are we talking about the same Voldemort here?

We all agree HBP sucked. Let's not blame Dumbledore for it.

Or maybe Nagini is just that awesome? The fact that Voldemort stayed away for as long as he did proves that the 'stupid' plan was working.

Yeah lets go with that.

 

All right, here we fucking go.

To reiterate the point I made the first time - what exactly is competing with Snape for Neville's greatest fear here? It's not the achievement you make it out to be. Snape is a harsh authority figure who has little patience. Whoop de doo.

And then we'd have an absolutely riveting first book. 'It gets better, honest - in the second book we hear about Harry's second year of doing fuck all. Oh, and the badass wizard headmaster of the school killed a giant killer snake at some point in the year. But that's not what the book is about.'

Beyond that, the charm wasn't mentioned in canon until PoA.

Let's pretend, for a moment, that Hermione is something like the brightest witch of her ag--oh, wait.

In the scheme of things, a basilisk using the pipes to get around is a fairly mundane terror. I can see Dumbledore missing it for want of considering monsters too esoteric.

Because the children of Hogwarts view their wands as weapons. And they all know how to kill with them. And have no compunctions against a little vigilante justice on the back of information gleaned from gossiping twelve year olds. Yep.

I know Dumbledore has a lot of titles to go with Headmaster and Supreme Mugwump, but I don't think 'Chancellor of Undeserved Nasty Taletelling' is one of them. The gossip of the student body didn't go nearly far enough to warrant intervention by Dumbledore.

And Malfoy would have laughed in his face. A House Elf? Really? Because so much of the wizarding world would take that testimony seriously. That's worse than the idea that something that a schoolboy glimpsed briefly could be enough to warrant an investigation into a respected member of society more invasive than that inflicted upon a group known to have tortured a pair of respected Aurors into insanity.

Hahaha. You mean like the time Voldemort came back to life? Like how Dumbledore tried to go around Fudge to warn the people about a grave threat, and he ended up booted out of all public office?

Member of an Order that was inactive at this time. A teacher who spent his time teaching children or cloistered in his quarters, and not in regular, prolonged contact with the Headmaster who is not shown to hover over his subordinates. Frankly, with the amount of work teachers have over a school year I'm surprised Barty had time to piss let alone plot.

Yeah, Harry would have...shame about that potential open doorway into the Dark Lord's mind and all, but hey, Harry understands the need for secrecy.

Because the Order was absolutely overflowing with an abundance of witches and wizards capable of subduing and transporting Voldemort to Nuremgard. Only one he ever feared, remember?

Yeah, the information - if that was all Albus was trying to teach him. Which it wasn't. He was teaching him understanding.

Not even hidden from Nagini? You mean the snake with the piece of the Dark Lord's soul riding shotgun? Bit of a difference between a snake sneaking into the Ministry and the goddam Dark Lord strolling in.

What is this I don't even. Perhaps you're missing the part where he was one of the greatest wizards of the age, because you sure as hell missed my point.

Boom. Class dismissed.

 

Sheesh. If you need Albus to be stupid so Harry can shine - to have a 1st year book where something happens - then you have a stupid Albus. You can't have both the stupid Albus so kids can save the day and the greatest and wisest Wizard of his time Albus. It's mutually exclusive.

If Albus didn't know Harry was a parselmouth after he was "outed", then he is incompetent. Also, I think you haven't read the books. Fudge threw Hagrid into Azkaban for a mere suspicion without proof because "the ministry needs to be seen to do something". Dumbledore certainly could have gotten Malfoy interrogated and mind probed on his word, given his reputation. Unless of couse he was so inept as to lose all his power and influence in the face of Malfoy's gold, and never saw that coming, and never thought of crushing the guy when he still had the influence. Like, in year 2.

If the guards cannot detect Nagini, how can they detect Voldemort before he kills them? Ever thought about that? His plan hinges on one guard to alert the Ministry to expose Voldemort, but the guard cannot do that since he'll be easily killed by Voldemort. Not to mention that by the time Voldemort actually moved, no guard was left there.

And yes, Voldemort could have been contained. Only one he ever feared, remember? This fixation with killing him, instead of capturing him was weird.

 

What? DUmbledore can't get Malfoy arrested with his reputation. Dumbledore can hardly do anything with his reputation. The minister is the only one with that power, and the minister thinks DUmbledore is a usurper. Dumbledore clearly didn't have the influence in year 2, or he would have stopped Hagrid from being arrested.

 

Stop contradicting yourself. If he couldn't exercise enough influence to keep Hagrid out of Azkaban then he definitely didn't have enough influence to go around accusing Malfoy and getting him punished.
And please stop probing minds. We do have something called ethics in the civilized world.

 

Maybe, but that doesn't make Dumbledore's decision to hire him stupid when you consider other reasons Dumbledore might have had to hire him.

Also, Neville's fear of Snape might have more to do with how he was raised rather than Snape's sour disposition. Snape was only Neville's greatest fear, whereas Snape targeted Harry just as much as he did Harry, if not more so.

That assumes that Flamel would agree to such a thing. It's Flamel's property and Dumbledore cannot decide to hide the stone with Fidelius without his permission. Flamel might not have wanted to do so, for whatever reason. You are immediately thinking the worst of Dumbledore when there could be other causes for it.

Another ridiculous assumption which takes Dumbledore to be Omniscient. Dumbledore might not have known for a fact Harry was not the 'Heir of Slytherin'. Harry was speaking Parseltongue. For all he knew Harry could have been the heir. The only thing Dumbledore believed was that Harry didn't open the chamber. He must only suspected after seeing the Diary that Voldemort might have done the same with Harry too.

Human hands can be lethal weapons when used right. You're thinking like a muggle.

Do you really think a House elf's statements would even be considered? One that is considered strange by most House elves even? Pensieve memories of who? Harry never directly saw Malfoy placing the Diary. He extrapolated it based on the memories of what happened that day. Otherwise the entire incident might not have happened at all.

Are you serious? The same press that is under Fudge's control only a couple of years later?

Also, that would have been immoral. Dumbledore has no hardcore proof that Malfoy did it as I've explained earlier.

Or Crouch was really good at what he did. I don't know why you think the villains so incompetent. If they were that incompetent, Death Eaters would not have been winning before Voldemort's first death.

Yes, Dumbledore is smart, but he is not all knowing, and he is a human.

I'm not even going to comment on this. I guess you missed all the earlier explanations about this?

Thanks for that, I had a good laugh.

The actual information of what you learn in a semester of high school can be summed up in a week. Why not have just do that and get rid of this expensive education system altogether?

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The difference is that Hagrid was a nobody to the ministry, whereas Malfoy was important and powerful. You're again assuming that the Villains are all incompetent and Dumbledore is the only competent one in canon.

It's ridiculous. You are again assuming the villain to be incompetent. Voldemort fearing Dumbledore doesn't mean that in a fight Dumbledore would always win. It means that there is a chance of Dumbledore winning. The flip side of that is Dumbledore dying, and what would that result in? Voldemort taking over the wizarding world, that's what.

It's like nuclear deterrents. Everyone knows they're powerful, and everyone fears the other that might use a nuclear weapon, doesn't mean countries are actually going to use them.

 

You mean the half giant who was found guilty of the attacks last time they happened?

So what you're saying is, you don't like the fact that they guarded it, and you don't like the fact they left it unguarded?

His plan didn't hinge on the one guard alerting the Ministry. The guard was there to foil the attempts of Riddle to get what he wanted via proxy...because he was trying to get the Ministry to continue weakening Dumbledore, while building his own strength. Note that when he did enter the Ministry himself, he was exposed, uniting his enemies. Getting a strong sense of deja vu here...

Only one he ever feared? Albus Dumbledore? He came down with a bad case of death, bro.

And before you say, "But what about before he died, O Wisest of Tomatoes?", let me make that point for you. He couldn't. The Dark Lord Voldemort was not a trifling opponent. Probably had 'Bad Motherfucker' printed on his wallet. If Dumbledore could have laid him low and brought him bound before Harry for him to 'vanquish', don't you think he would have done that, rather than bending his will to finding a way for Harry to both vanquish his foe and survive the Scarcrux's destruction?