Canon rehashes with zero changes, duh. Why would you ever want to read fanfiction which wasn't just a regurgitation of the source material?

 

I definitely agree with Zennith. Marvel is a bit tricky because of the different continuities but I think Roarian had established that the movies were similar to a certain continuity and he was going to base most of his writing on that one.

I don't think the author advertised this as an exact re-telling of the movies but with an insert-Harry Potter that has little to no real impact on the already told plot. I think more than anything this story is playing around with the question of what would happen to this reality if Harry Potter were thrown into it during the beginning of Iron Man 1 timeline-wise.

 

I just got done watching The Amazing Spider-Man for the first time and only now am I seeing just how spot on you nailed Marc Webb's Spider-Man's character. I think I definitely like this version of Spider-Man's character better than Sam Raimi's. He is a lot more amusing with the wisecracks and his scientific intelligence is portrayed a bit more. It definitely makes me look forward to reading the first meeting between him and Tony. They seem to be a lot alike in many ways and it should be amusing to read how their interaction together will go.

I'm curious though, at what point in the Spider-Man timeline is the latest scene taking place? Has Spider-Man already faced The Lizard? Have Peter and Gwen gotten back together? Has Gwen already died? Has Peter even met Mary Jane yet? These are just a few questioned that have popped up for me now that I have seen the movie. My only wish right now though, is that I hope not to see a Peter/Mary Jane ship in this story. Ever since the original Spider-Man trilogy, Kristen Dunst has kinda ruined Mary Jane's image in my mind. Pretty much anyone else would be preferable in my opinion, or no one at all for that matter.

 

I think fanfiction is a retelling of the original story.

The problem is, for that to still work, there has to be something of the original story left that makes it recognizable. If you change too much, you're not writing fanfiction anymore. You're writing an original story with ripped off names and character descriptions.

I don't care how hard you sell it as a Harry Potter fic, if you take away magic, replace all the wands with harpoons, make Hogwarts a ship, and make Voldemort a pale whale, you're writing Moby Dick fanfiction. Only worse, because it would be a high school Moby Dick fic, which is a horror that I pray is never unleashed upon this unhappy world.*

So. There's a limit on how many things you can change, before it stops being fanfiction, before it stops be a specific continuity, and becomes something else entirely.

You want to know what makes this recognizable as the Marvel Movieverse?

Nothing. There is not one thing here in this fic that makes the fic resemble the movies. Iron Man's backstory is the standard fare that it always is, but the one new twist that's truly unique to the movies gets axed in favor of the bodyguard line, because God forbid Tony Stark be allowed to be cool or anything. The Hulk's backstory was lifted in it's entirety from the comics, and has no resemblance whatsoever to the movies (which, as I mentioned, I would be willing to let slide normally, because the Hulk movies were quite frankly sub-par at best), and we hadn't seen anything of Captain America or Thor's stories yet as of the point where I quit. In fact, we hadn't even seen Captain America or Thor. Like, at all.

How far do you have to gut a continuity before someone gets to stand up and say that you're calling a tuna a rhododendron? Could I write some House of M fanfiction where the Scarlet Witch doesn't exist and everybody's thrown back in time by the Doctor and they all go to the same high school? Or would somebody want to know what the hell I was doing, and possibly what medication I was on?

So you decided to paste in something that was boring and has been done a billion times, instead of pasting in something that was cool?

Again, I question your logic. The entire reason that scene was so impactful is that most superheroes do have an 'unmasking' at some point. It's dramatic and can be used for a lot of things.**

Only Iron Man didn't, because he never adopted a mask in the first place. Not in the movie continuity. His 'unmasking,' such as it was, was his birth, the punctuation mark at the end of his origin story. That had never been done before. It was one of the defining points of the Marvel movies, one of the things that sold a lot of the older Marvel fans that this really would be different, and unique, and original, and not just a shitty rehash of plots we've seen before with a huge special effects budget.

And you axed that in favor of the body guard line. And now you're saying you're planning on having him unmask himself eventually at some point in the near future, totally ignoring the fact that Iron Man has done that loads of times in various comic continuities before.

It's not that he's unmasked that matters. It's when, and how, the answers being "immediately" and "in front of the whole world at a press conference, like that one cool part from Civil War."

Again. Why? There was no need to change this, and Harry is currently only maintaining a terrible and flimsy secret identity solely so that Tony's alibi won't be questioned. He doesn't need it otherwise. You apparently did this for no real reason that I can discern, which is why I questioned it in the first place. There is no pressing matter that forced Tony's hand, here. He did it because you wanted him to do it, and you wanted him to do it because you didn't want to copy the movies.

So, if we are not going by the movies, remind me again why you labeled this as being the movie canon, as opposed to just Earth-616 stuff?

Sure they do. But that's not relevant to canon. Canon is facts, and nothing more. As it stands, this fic is apparently taking place in an edited version of Earth-616, with the lone actions of a single character (Stain) being the only thing that could be considered an anchor to Earth-199999.

I won't, because I don't follow this fic anymore. The only reason I'm posting this is because someone who is a member of both DLP and Hawk's Fanfiction Forum told me that you had posted an edited and one-sided version of one of my PMs, which I had sent in response to one of yours, here on DLP. I'm here solely to set the record straight on what I actually said and meant. You can do whatever the hell you want. Have Harry jump eighty feet in the air and fart Doomsday to death for all I care.

Just stop calling this movieverse continuity, stop calling it Earth-199999 continuity, because it's not. That's false advertising and false expectations for people who actually know things about Marvel canon, and aren't just now becoming fans because of the Avengers movies. That's all I wanted, and all I want, you to do. That's it. And now that I've said that, we're done. Have a good evening.


* And if I ever find that any of you are responsible, however remotely and indirectly, for allowing, creating, or condoning such a thing, I will find you, and I will kill you, and I will do it in Liam Neeson's voice.

** Unless you're Batman. Or being written by Joe Quesada; may he be condemned to the same circle of Hell as Karin Traviss and Matthew Ward.


[EDIT]

And since I won't be posting about this fic again, I wanted to address one last thing.

You don't get to claim credit for things you didn't write. I can't just wave my hands and say that everything I will ever write from now on will be something, and you won't ever see it, but you'll have to take my word on it that it's true.

By the same token, you can't claim "their backstories are essentially the same" or "this has the history of the movie canon," because that's you telling us something is true, as opposed to showing us that it's true in the fic, and you don't get to claim credit for that. If Captain America's backstory is entirely identical to the movies, or if X-Men First Class happened in the past, then you need to show that in the story, or someone in the fic needs to say as much, and if they don't, the default assumption is that it didn't happen. Writing is show, not tell. Telling needs to be kept to a minimum.

So you telling us that all of this stuff that doesn't matter and isn't relevant that happened in the past or are a bunch of minor details that are happening offscreen are all in accordance with what happened in the movies, doesn't mean anything. You do not, in short, get to claim credit for something you haven't written. You need to either put it in, somehow, somewhere, someway, or you need to stop putting it on your resume as something that counts when arguing that your story deserves the label of being a deviation on a certain continuity or canon sequence.

 

What about fanfiction that comes after the original story? Like post hogwarts stuff? Is that still fanfiction?

 

Maybe that Spiderman is closer to the original comic character but the film is just forgettable compared to Raimi's work which was charming and had real warmth. IMHO Garfield, the new Peter Parker actor, hadn't the charisma to carry such a film.

 

Indeed. Even if one might disagree over the movie's quality compared to, say, Spider-Man 2, at the very least I enjoyed the Spidey more, since Spider-Man 3 basically removed any dignity the raimi one had left.

If your read the chapter, you'll get some idea of many of these things from Peter's dialogue. Yes, this is post-movie, and a while after, which is why he mentions the Lizard in past tense. Gwen is alive and whether or not they're back together is left a bit unknown thus far. Mary Jane hasn't appeared and I"m not sure if I want to introduce her just for the sake of a pairing. Gwen is stll there, and she was Peter's original GF.

---------- Post automerged at 11:40 ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 ----------

Yeah, next chapter has Tony and co.

 

Don't let Lord Raine 'criticism' bother you, he does the same with all other fandoms he/she/it likes.

Example: He/She/It loves Snape and Naruto in general if you dare to say anything against them, he/she/it goes f* crazy and his rants become so trollish that nobody take him/her seriously anymore.

----

 

I don't agree with this necessarily. AU fanfiction such as this means that you're basically splitting from an existing universe and adding some twist to it; it's like a HP fanfic in which Harry's sorted into Slytherin or something. Even if he ends up joining Voldemort by the end of first year and the rest of the book is basically about his exploits as a badass dark wizard, it's still HP fanfiction even if it's in no way a retelling anymore.

The characters and the world they live in are constants in most fanfiction, even if the plot isn't.

This is an Avengers/HP fic, and not only are superheroes still a major thing and magic, but aside from plot, I haven't even tinkered with those too much. I mean, even the 'original' villains are from the extended movieverse materials such as the games.

Well, it's based on a continuity but if you're going to change it, it's necessarily a different one. However calling this a 616 fic just seems weird. None of the characters in that continuity are the same as their Ultimate counterpart, or their movie counterpart.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

At this point I am wondering what you're on about. How is a fic with less movie material than you like the equivalent of a highschool fic? Now you're just searching for nasty comparisons or something.

Again with the Iron Man thing. I'm happy that you liked that scene but I really think it's kind of a minor thing.

And yet more.

Yeah, the only reason was because he was protecting Tony or something. -rolleyes-

Thus the one difference is all that it took, huh? I guess the whole Tesseract business is just filler, but oh boy, that one moment where Tony didn't immediately toss away his helmet, that's horror.

Whatever you say.

Drama.

Considering neither Cap's nor Thor's history has been gone into very much, this isn't a surprise. The history of Banner is clear enough, and the overlap with IM1's plot makes it clear enough that it's the same there too. BW and Hawkeye share a history too like in the movies, including BW's former KGB connections. Aside from filling in a gap in Bruce's history, what exactly do you think I've been doing here? Well, it's not like you're gonna answer, but I'm curious.

Rehash of stuff already said.

---------- Post automerged at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------

Heh. I don't really know him, but though I started out taking him seriously, it's become harder and harder when he's basically harping on about a single change in a single character's story and then extrapolating that to BETRAYAL of the entire movieverse or something.

Cheers.

 

So, not only you feed the bears, you feed the trolls too?
;D



I'm hoping for a Deadpool omake sometime in the future. ;D
To screw up with all the continuity whining minds even more.

 

Yeah, I take back what I said about agreeing with Raine. I thought he was trying to raise some legitimate concerns, but it turns out he's just butthurt.

As for the aforementioned comic leekage concerns I had mentioned earlier, the only one that bothered me is the whole AIM arc that's going on. I hadn't heard anything about them before this fic, and unlike Thanos, Death, the Tesseract and the Seidhr, there doesn't seem to be any real connection to Harry's backstory. The antagonists in the movies were all tied into the characters histories and motivations--Vanko was the son of a disgruntled employee of Tony's father, General Ross is the father of Bruce's girlfriend and the supporter of his project, Red Skull was the anti-thesis of Cap and the only other person who had used the serum, and so forth. AIM feels out of no-where, with no obvious reason for why it is the antagonist other than that it wants to destroy America or something. But:

This is actually something I can get behind. The non-movie villains that are showing up bugged me because they felt pulled out of other continuities. Since each continuity has its own series of events that shaped the characters, the reason the antagonists are after the heroes changes a little in each one and that doesn't always translate well into the new events. BUT, if these characters are being pulled out of the games based off of the Earth-199999 universe, then they fit in perfectly and I am A-OK with them being there. Just keep in mind that most people who are coming in expecting to only have to had to watch the movies to know what's going on (like me) are going to have no idea who these guys are, so more description and explanation are going to be needed.

The AIM arc also feels to be dragging along, but that's probably because I've been reading each chapter as it comes out as opposed to blitzing through it in one reading.

Also, I have no problems with little character traits and minor details from other continuities bleeding through onto this one. There's only so much detail you can fit into a movie.


In address to something Raine said, there is something that did bug me a little about the press scene where Harry was introduced as the Magician. While I fully understand that Harry isn't the type of guy to like the spotlight, and so he would use any chance he could get to hide his identity, one of the things I like about this new universe is that there doesn't seem to be any real attempts at a secret identity. No-one wears a mask (helmets don't count), and they either don't care or are relying on Clark Kent hiding logic (if you meet a guy that looks like Brad Pitt eating a hot dog in Eureka, Kansas, you're going to think that it's a guy that looks like Brad Pitt, not the actor). Making Harry the only one who wears a mask feels a bit out-of-sync with the rest of the continuity.

Spiderman gets a pass though, because he's a kid and has a base of operations rather than being free-roaming like the others (making relatives targets of opportunity).

Now I just have to wait until the Amazing Spiderman comes out on DVD...

 

Partially this is because some of the pieces are missing. AIM exists, sure, but it's clear enough that it's not just random terrorists.

Boris Bullski for one is from the games, for example. Tarleton as MODOK has been hinted at but not actually shown, but the incarnation is similr to his ultimate appereance, much like all the other chcaracters in the movieverse. Aside from that, I'm pretty sure Triers is the only original character hanging around that has any screentime.

The AIM thing is basically over for quite a while, and when some threads left around are picked up, it will be about individuals and not the group as a whole.

Also, I have no problems with little character traits and minor details from other continuities bleeding through onto this one. There's only so much detail you can fit into a movie.

This is fair, though I wanted something like that since I don't see Harry just openly going about his wizardly stuff like that right now; he'd need to be pretty comfortable in his new position to do that. Which basically means that a badass Dr. Strange-like bit where he just says 'fuck it' and goes in magic-blazing could well happen in the future to set up the status quo. (I'm sorry, I am prone to spoilers.)

Spidey might take off his mask occasionally, but never on the job. I figure he would be fine with it when the only people around already know him anyway (e.g. MJ in the comics, Gwen in the new movie) but generally it's sort of who he is.

 

Typical Raine:

"I've stopped reading this fic ages ago but I still feel the need to be a complete asshat and bitch about it because clearly, I know better than the author. How dare this author not write this fic how I think he/she should do it!?

Oh, and now that I'm done being a butthurt cunt, I'm going to claim to stop posting in this thread because I don't want to have to defend my utterly brainless drivel."

Bravo.

 

Ya know. Standard.

 

Naruto is an average manga that got boring but recently got better in the last fifty or so chapters, and is winding to a close. And Snape is a monstrous asshole that bullied children, never grew up, and wouldn't have shed a tear if James and (infant, baby, innocent) Harry had been brutally murdered and torn apart, so long as Lily had been okay and he could have maybe caught her on the rebound.

I don't know who you are. And you obviously know nothing about me. So stop talking.

I use the term retelling in a general sense. Fanfiction usually has a divergence, but not always. You can do epilogues, prologues, side stories, ect. It's hard to pin down a truly defining 'theme' for it.

There is, however, always a 'but.' That's where the story starts. At the 'but.' Whether it's "all of these other things are happening but off to the side," or "everything was going just as you know and remember, but then," or "and they all lived happily ever after, the end, but suddenly," or whatever other deviation you want. It's still fanfiction.

The thing is, though, there needs to be enough left for it to still be recognizable. The essence of what makes a setting or a story unique still needs to be present. Normally, that's not that difficult. To use an already provided example, Harry is sorted into Slytherin. This is clearly, obviously, Harry Potter fanfiction. Harry Potter is Harry Potter, he is the Boy-Who-Lived, he goes to Hogwarts, and he is a wizard. Obviously a Harry Potter fic.

But the problem is, with some settings, that isn't always enough. Harry Potter is the Boy-Who-Lived and attends Hogwarts is more than enough to call any fic that contains it Harry Potter fanfiction. But Spiderman is Peter Parker and lives in New York City doesn't tell us anything about what universe or timeline or what point in what timeline we're actually at. All it tells us is that we're not dealing with the extreme minority of stories where Spiderman isn't Peter. We know we're in Marvel, but we have no idea where. It's like being lost in a frozen wilderness, and all you know is that you're in Russia.

Because settings like Marvel and DC are so complicated, more information is required. The question of what is and is not canon, or at what point something stops being one thing and becomes another, is a much more delicate one than it usually is. It's a side-effect of having hundreds of different writers and artists all working, sometimes together and usually independently, on their own thing with the general setting, over the course of several decades.

It would be as though Rowling inexplicably showed up here one day and declared everything posted on this site, past present and future, to be canon. And we then had to reconcile that.

It's the borrowed essence of something that differentiates original fiction with fanfiction. And I'm sorry to say that while this is, most definitely and obviously, a Marvel/HP fic, the essence of the movies isn't here. I'm sorry, but it's just not. It kind of was in the beginning, but then you just took a sharp left turn after faffing about in the Middle East for awhile, and that was the end of it. I see comic book Hulk, comic book Iron Man, your own versions of Death and Nick Fury, and Harry Potter. And that's it.

We could sit here all day if we wanted to, talking about how to make the "best" Avengers. We could say that this one background was the best Hulk background, so that's in, and the Iron Man movies had the best Tony Stark, so that's in, and Ultimate Spiderman was best Spiderman, so that's in there as well.

And that would be fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But the problem is, you could not then say that it was an Ultimate Marvel fic, because not everything from it is from Ultimate. You also could not say it was Earth-616, or the Movieverse, because it does not contain a majority of any of those things. It doesn't even really contain a significant minority of those things. It would be a Frankenstein's monster of continuity, not really belonging to any one thing, because it was cobbled together from many things.

All I'm asking is that you change the label. I'm not interested in what you actually do with the fic. Partially because I no longer follow it, but even if I did, I wouldn't try and 'take over.' The people who say that are stupid, and you should ignore them. As the writer, you're free to do what you like, and as a reviewer, I'm free to like, dislike, disagree, and critique that.

But I haven't done any of that. You'll note that I haven't noted anything that I 'want' you to change. At no point did I say, for instance, "you need to go back and change the Stark press conference or this story will be shit." What I'm saying is that you need to alter the label of the fic, because that label carries with it certain expectations and assumptions on how things will go. And then things didn't go that way. And that's perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with a generic Marvelverse fic. In fact, it would arguably be better than what you've got now, because if you take that limitation off, I can just pitch things at you all day that would be great to go in.

Like this:

The emphasis on the 'and' makes it seem as though you're under the impression that magic and superheroes together are a 'thing.'

They are not.





It's not unique to Marvel. It's not even new for the Avengers specifically. The Sorcerer Supreme has been an on-again off-again Avenger in years past, and has even been referred to as the "Supernatural Avenger," i.e. the one who takes care of the spookier side of things like demons, gods, angels, and fairies, as it's his area of expertise. The Sorcerer Supreme is a warrior, a sage, a protector, a guardian, a gatekeeper, and most importantly, a teacher. It is the Sorcerer Supreme that guards the highways and byways of the Multiverse. He is not 'a' wizard. He is THE Wizard. The Mage. The Magus. He is the Wise when mortals speak of the Magi. Beings across the galaxy, across dimensions, across universes, have heard of 'the' Sorcerer, the Sorcerer Supreme, even if they do not know who or what it is, or where it happens to hail from. Because that changes, you see. It's a mantle that changes hands. He is a teacher, so that lost knowledge will not remain forever lost. He is a defender of the innocent, and a protector of both the mundane and the fantastic, regulating the boarder between them. And he also secrets in his possession things of unimaginable power. Things that could cause untold destruction if left to their own devices, or if they fell into the wrong hands.



It says much that the greatest nemesis of Doctor Strange, the classic Sorcerer Supreme, is not 'a' demon, but THE Demon, a God-Tyrant of entire dimensions and universes that sees Earth, that sees our universe, as just one more mile of land to be conquered and subjugated.



In fact, once I saw you were just taking stuff from the comics to suit what you needed, I was disappointed when Harry didn't become Sorcerer Supreme.

Because, you know. That wouldn't be amazingly cool or anything.

Try to get you to go back and edit things? It's a bit too far gone for that, isn't it? It would be an awful lot of work to go back and edit things now, especially since most of them would change the plot. I don't want you to conform to a strict standard like that at all.

Quite the opposite. What I'm saying you need to do is either:

A.) Start steering this back more towards the movies as you move forwards, because changing Iron Man at the last minute to how he is in the comics, then replacing the Hulk's background with something from the comics, removes pretty much all of the backbone that you could use to say it's movie continuity, because there was nothing really unique from the comics in the Captain America or Thor movies, sadly, and Wolverine and Spiderman haven't actually shown up yet (and were cut from the movie in production, because somebody that is hopefully looking for a job right now thought the Avengers movie would be a flop, and thus axed the idea as being too much effort). So there's hardly anything in there that says "this is the movieverse" right now.

B.) Discard that noise entirely, and bring in all the cool shit. Like that time Carnage visited a museum and got dinosaur DNA on him.



Or that time Spiderman fought a Tyrannosaurs Rex.

Or that time Deadpool was katana-jousting on the back of a velociraptor while his own zombified head gave running commentary.

If you're sensing a pattern here, that's natural.

It's your call either way. I'm just throwing out ideas here.

[EDIT]

Edited those two wide pictures down some. Photobucket is horrible now. You can't even use percentages anymore to do it. What the hell.

 

For the love of god, link the pictures or use thumbnails.

 

I'll write here what I could have written on iRC about this:

*Jorm` walks in, takes one look at the petty and pointless arguments going in, shakes his head, and then walks out.