@ Atram Noctem:

Waa, heaven forbids Harry to ever take responsibility for his wrong choices, right?
It's so, so much easier to protect Harry from his repeatedly similar mistakes, than to admit that there is actually truth to Hermione's not-delicate-enough warnings.

You've managed to convinced me that the only actual reason you hate Hermione is because she's smarter than Harry (therefore ruining whatever powerful!intelligent!Harry you think he is supposed to be so you can project yourself into him?). Of course Harry would be so much more powerful without Hermione overshadow him. I mean, when Hermione was pertrified for months, she of course was not the only one in the whole school who figured out the Basilisk, right? Or it isn't like she is the one who trained Harry for the last task in GoF or anything. Because that's all she's good for.

I'm done with this, by the way.

@ Stan:
Again, Ginny is lazy writing, at best. For an important character that is supposed to be Harry Potter's love of his life, Ginny is barely featured. OotP? She's drowned behind all the action and the people in the DA. And Ginny's one page of difficulty in switching roles in a team is what you based her development on?

It makes most of her "changes" in sixth year authentic, by comparison.

Yes, "I supposed I have to accept that Bill is with Fleur", that one line proved that Ginny totally isn't Mary Sue. It isn't like she dragged Fleur's name in the mud around for ages at all, and no one else bothered to reign her in. At least Molly attempted to reign the twins in, but how could little Ginevra do wrong?

Mary Sue isn't simply about being without flaws. There are types of Mary Sues that have flaws, but people chose to ignore/given "get-out-of-jail" card, and Ginny is the latter. With her lack of development for the importance of her role, and the fact is that Ginny hardly ever received any grief for all the flaws that she has, it makes her extremely unlikeable, savvy?

Sure, it isn't one of the reasons for Ron and Hermione's fallout in sixth year, or anything. But the girl's hardly even owned up to anything, does she?

Sure, Hermione has never told Harry anything about her relationship with Krum, but she told Ginny. Ginny and Hermione have been said to be close friends. And Ginny blurted out things that Hermione only told her. Of course I'm imagining things without evidence. It isn't like Ginny is being a bitch for that or anything.

I've read the books, and no, nothing you've said (or what you linked), are any evidence that make Ginny likable. I'm glad you like her humor, someone has to.

 

Maybe she thought it wasn't a secret anymore, or it was no longer relevant. It was two years since that happened anyway.

 

Dude, what. You claimed that she doesn't do that. I gave examples where she did. Just admit you're wrong instead of trying to argue over if it's justifiable or not.

Another strawman. No, It's not about overshadowing, it's about coddling. Harry would be much less retarded and more interesting as a main character if he didn't have a plot device in the form of a nerdy girl to solve his problems. It's about how Deathly Hallows was pretty much "Hermione Granger Does Everything And Ron And Harry Are Just Two Retards She Babysits: The Book". She is simply a bad character in that regard, because her Mary-Sueness swallows the roles of other characters.

 

I dislike Hermione because of numerous character flaws she has that rub me the wrong way, in large part to knowing people like her in real life who I cannot stand. I dont give two shits about her intelligence, and I certainly dont find it endearing, but I do find it very amusing that both sides of the argument here are exaggerating beyond belief. Looking at the two arguments my choices would be:

a) Hermione is about as at fault for literally anything as Jesus is (ignoring all of her dickish moments).
b) Hermione is at fault for everything bad ever in the series (Ignoring all of her non-dickish moments and making the non-dickish ones look dickish).

Hermione is a character who is actually quite realistically well written who I happen to dislike. So is Harry. Snape fascinates me in how deplorable he is. Dumbledore is one of my favourite characters in fiction.

As for Ginny, it's hard to hate a character who has none. I've grown to dislike Ginny as a result of fanfiction a lot more than I actually dislike her as a book character.

 

Sigh. It's as if I'm arguing with a brick wall. Only more stubborn.

Yes, Ginny's a secondary character. Perhaps it's time you figured that out. Harry Potter is a trio-centric story with very little importance given to romance. The 'Love of his life' had little to no role in Voldemort's defeat, and wasn't a very important character as such.

OoTP is more important to Ginny's character development than HBP. Both of her possession and Easter Egg moments are in this book. Sure, ignore an entire book and then complain.

Her flying credentials were established earlier. That's more than there is for any other character.

No one put much effort in reigning her in because they agreed with her. Fleur was a snob and it was only at the end of HBP that she proved (to them) there was more to her than that. At which point she won Molly over, and Ginny accepted her. Your Point?

Also, Molly did try to 'reign Ginny in'. Read canon.

Yes, it does. She was proven to be wrong in her assessment of another character, and accepts her in the end, albeit grudgingly. How does that not prove that she isn't a Mary Sue, given how much importance the Fleur thing was given in HBP? This is, of course, disregarding the first few books before Ginny got over her crush on Harry, where Harry was embarrassed by her Valentine, among other things.

Yes, you are. All the 'evidence' you have is that Hermione told Ginny about Viktor, so she must have told her about Ron. That has so many assumptions in it : that Hermione knew about her own feelings, that Hermione felt comfortable confiding in Ginny about Ron, that Ginny was even there for Hermione to confide to (she spent most of her time with Dean early HBP, remember? Of course not), that Ginny had any reason to think that Ron didn't know that Hermione kissed Viktor even though both she and Harry knew, etc.

Well, this is the first sensible thing you've said. Mary Sues make the entire story and entire plot about themselves. Their very presence poisons the narrative. Tell me, what exactly did Ginny have to do with the Voldemort war? Did she take over the Harry Potter books and make it Ginevra Weasley and the Deathly Hallows? Did she outshine other characters and take away their spotlights and roles in the story in the least? I think not.

Her role is being Harry's Girlfriend and a relatively strong character who can be there for him at times when others can't. Her entire character arc revolves around Harry. She has enough development for her role.

Ignore the Fleur thing, ignore the CoS incident, ignore the crush, ignore the Valentine, ignore the fights with Ron and Hermione. Yep, ignore, ignore, ignore. And then say that she's a Mary Sue. Sure. That'll work.

(By the way, exactly how many times is Hermione called out on her faults? Exactly when is she called a hypocrite? Going by your logic, we're reaching Mary Sue-ness levels of over 9000 for her.)

Do you have any more 'logical' arguments that pick and choose canon as you see fit, and completely ignore the first few books? Also, I'm not trying to show 'evidence to make Ginny likable'. You can like or dislike whoever you want, just don't manufacture 'evidence' for the same.

 

I dislike Hermione with her book knowledge and thinking she's correct in everything. I've met people like her that think they know everything because they read it in a book. They are the ones that usually fail when in "high school" (Finland) you're supposed to know how to apply that knowlegde. I also don't know how much of my dislike of her stems from cannon or fannon.

 

Although obviously, the way an 11 year old child acts is not justification to discard her as a romantic partner years later when everyone has grown up a little.

 

Try harder next time, that was as poor as your hometown.

 

in dead or alive situations...
please read what I was saying, you missed my marks half the time. Of course she's going to warn Harry about his tendencies to act first, think later before they go. I'm sorry she wasn't as delicate to him as she has been, but I thought you complaint about her coddling him?

Hermione does everything for Ron and Harry? Not trying to sound like a broken record, but have you forgotten everything Harry and Ron have done? Aren't they mainly the one who fix their plans whenever it goes wrong? Aren't there plenty of situations Hermione isn't there? Aren't they saving Hermione as much as she was saving them? There is a reason it's called a team, a trio, and not the story of one cool main protagonist and his two followers. Besides, Harry was already the one with the top duelling skill in his year. If he has Hermione's plethora of spells and her smart, it's okay to be Gary Stu? Again, that's why I keep talking about the fact that you just hate Hermione because Harry isn't as smart as her.

It's okay. The feeling is entirely mutual.

How is that ever used as an excuse? Neville was secondary characters, but his development was believable and still there, you can see him struggle and become a better man for it. Remus was secondary characters, but through his limited appearances in fourth books on, you can still see his crippling inferiority complex and how he struggled with it still, even after he got together with Tonks. Ginny was planned as Harry's girl from the start (because, frankly, her role until the end was that, Harry's girlfriend and barely anything else), as Romione was, but JKR basically forgot Ginny entirely for a few books. You don't get to say Ginny was secondary characters and excuse her bad development.

I complaint because it was hardly enough. For Ginny's development, it was a series of events like this:
Ginny is A => She changes (which we do not get to see) => She became the most perfect thing ever.

She has the hugest crush on the boy-who-lived. She was a shy kid without friends in first year. Hermione told her to be herself. Bam, in HBP we was told she was popular, was fiery, was perfect and Harry fell for her. There was no process, no nothing. The snippets (the one page about Ginny's Quidditch practice) was hardly enough to justify that "hey, Ginny not only was a terrific Chaser, she is a great Seeker now and she got us the Cup". Compared to Harry's quest to get the Quidditch Cup, Ginny's just falls flat, because it was as shallow as the rest of her development is.

Again, she was a product of lazy writing, because her important role should have been given better development, but no.

My point is that it's always someone else's fault when it comes to Ginny, eh? Of course, Harry, who had joined the Triwizard Tournament with Fleur, had watched Fleur cried not finding her sister in the tournament and earned her gratitude for doing so, would not feel annoyed at Ginny's bratty attitude. Of course everyone else in the Burrow who has watched Fleur and Bill fell it love would also agree with Ginny. I totally overlooked the one sentence where Molly scolded Ginny for saying Fleur is a cow. But the heart of the matter still was the same. Fact is that whatever Ginny does, it was very much unopposed, or it was so half-hearted, and she always, always walked away scot-free. It makes an unexciting character as well as an unlikable one.

I've seen a lot of people hating the trio for getting points for the Gryffidors at the end of first and second years, even though they almost died saving the school/Ginny. Ginny was rewarded for basically no-risk, why are you surprised a lot of people (and I do think a lot, if you look at the link you've given me) hating her for being who she is?

And you said you felt like you were talking to a brick wall.
I never, ever said anything about Hermione told Ginny about Ron. I said, and as I quote, Hermione told Ginny about Viktor. It was confidential because, oh hey, Hermione said nothing of sort to Harry (and Ron, not that this matters). So yea, blowing Hermione's confidence out to Ron in a fit of her anger was a rotten thing to do. Worse? Weeks later and Hermione still didn't know Ginny did it.

Ron's liking Hermione isn't new, nor something Ginny should be unaware of. That's why bringing Hermione's ex was also a bitchy thing to do.

Of course when you kissed a boy, you waited two years later to confide in your girl friend. That's why Hermione has a hard time trying to tell Ginny about Viktor in HBP, right? If you want to snide, at least make some sense.

I'm not ignoring Ginny's first appearance, as much as Ginny ignored herself. Please look at everything in context. Ginny has a rough first year with a crush and being possessed. She disappeared. When she appeared again, she was already a great Chaser, joined the DA. Her role wasn't too important until in book 6 and we are suddenly bombarded with information! information! information! about her. Ginny was so beautiful that Slytherins also agreed. Ginny was so fiery and popular. Ginny holds herself well. Ginny is funny. Etc etc.

There are so many different interpretations of Mary Sues. But yes, Ginny is poorly written. She is unopposed in everything she does, even when she is bratty it was everyone else's faults (it was Slughorn's fault for liking Ginny's attitude, it was the Weasley Household's faults for not telling Ginny off for being a complete cow). Hermione, even her intellect hurts her more than anyone. She found out about the Basilisk at the cost of her own petrification. She warns Harry and Ron at the cost of her own friendship with them. Compared to Hermione, or Ron, or Harry, Ginny's development was shallow at best. Timeskip is always, always bad for development and most of Ginny's core development was in timeskip. That's why she's so badly written.

She's also freaking idealized, okay? Her attitude, her "jokes", her "popularity" are all depicted in a positive way, even though they shouldn't be. Her fights with Ron and Hermione? Oh, you mean the one where Ginny left in tears and Ron left crushed, his friendship with Hermione took another hits for days and Hermione never knew why she was hated by Ron? The one where Ginny has a fight with Hermione? You mean the one where Hermione was told off with an ad hominem argument from Ginny, and Harry was thankful for Ginny even though Ginny was rude to Harry's best friend who was worried for him? Yes, it totally, totally didn't make Ginny into a complete cow, at all.

Ginny's begruding acceptance of Fleur? You mean the one where Ginny spent an entire year badmouthing Fleur unopposed, and suddenly one "I guess I have to accept her" and everything was okay, and no one else ever said anything about her bitchiness? Great.

I don't think anything you could really say could make me think different about Ginny. There's one thing I've always accepted about Ginny, it was the fact that Ginny conceded to the breakup for Harry's peace of heart, and stayed behind. But I still dislikes her for generally being an unlikable figure, and still, yes, pretty much a Mary Sue through and through.

Yes, it's okay that when Ron is wrong a few times, ditching Harry again and again, it was okay to forgive him. But when Hermione was protecting her pet and not apologizing immediately, she was totally a bitch (she did apologize later, and yet you still hold it against her?) How about the fact that she tried to mend their relationship, but Ron was an ass about it? How about the fact that when Hermione was doing her own things and not affecting Ron, he was still saying BS to drive her to tears? How about the fact that when it turned out that Ron, hey, you were wrong completely and utterly, you didn't apologize at all. Do you see Hermione hold that against him?

What does it say about you if you hate a 13 year old girl for protecting her pet?

Why do I think Hermione was upset? How about the fact that Harry was cheating for claiming someone else's hard work as his? Hermione is jealous? Need I tell you that Harry was the best in their year in DADA, and not once has Hermione ever complaint or show any disdain? Because Harry actually deserves that spot? That he got it for his own merits? That she organizes a class for him so he can help other people with his skills?

I was putting Hermione into a positive light? It's more like that you deliberately put her in a negative one just to hate her.

And this is the reason why I said you are deliberately putting her in negative light. Do you even read the books? Ron and Hermione was next to each other.

'Wingardium Leviosa!' he shouted, waving his long arms like a windmill.
'You are saying it wrong', Harry heard Hermione snap. 'It's Wing-gar-dium Levi-o-sa, make the "gar" nice and long.'

Yes, it totally was a bitch of her for helping Ron. How was she a jackass? When Ron was flailing his arms around and could hit her with it? If you imagined Hermione's arrogant face when she was saying it, let me get you in a secret. It was the movies. That didn't happen in the book. Go read again before complaining.

 

Above we see my aforementioned option a, where Hermione didn't do anything dickish, despite the numerous examples of dickish things that she did.

EDIT: Ninja'd hard lol.

 

You'd be surprised how many ISIS nutjobs are active on twitter. Besides, Syria is boring these days, your military is too easymode.

 

I never did ignore Hermione's annoying habits. I totally agreed, and I already pointed out that she is as arrogant as she is a hypocrite, that is a fact. I just never realize that some people could hate Hermione to the point of wishing she isn't in the story. If there is one thing you cannot deny, she has been with Harry even when Ron left him.

Never had I lowered Harry, he is my most favorite character in the book, cliche as I am to like the protagonist. But Harry did do the same mistakes over and over and that was the only thing I've point out at him, I doubt I was wrong.

I don't care too much about the movies, it was never where I based my love for characters for. But its unfair to read people here protect Ron when he messed up big times, but in the same breath hating Hermione for protecting her cat into not apologizing immediately (never mind the fact that she wasn't wrong at all).

Of course, since it's the popular opinion here, I'd just concede my defeat. As you said, it is personal opinion and as confusing as it is, I doubt there is anything I can say to prove otherwise, just as you can't prove mine. Consider me done with this topic.

 

When you're as big as I am, destroying vaginas is part of the package so no teaching necessary. Don't worry though man, i'm sure your girl is happy with your three incher.