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Wizards v. Muggles Megathread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Xiph0, Mar 7, 2016.

  1. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Tactical Tomato DLP Supporter

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    Could equally be in the second, given that a simple potion can cure the common cold.
     
  2. Blinker

    Blinker Slug Club Member DLP Supporter

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    Regarding your first point what immediately comes to mind is the flame-freezing charm. This spell is a) very easy b) effective against a whole category of harm c) designed to negate any harm a muggle can do using this form of attack. It hardly seems outside the realms of possibility that even if conventional shield charms are ineffective against physical attacks (which I doubt) that there would exist similarly trivial spells to resist any mundane attack.
     
  3. Halt

    Halt 1/3 of the Note Bros.

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    Seeing as we can study radiation and understand it, I doubt it's magical by nature, hence unlikely to belong to the third category.
     
  4. Moukaboy

    Moukaboy Banned

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    Ah but the flame freezing charm was made when witch hunting/burning was popular , we just don't know how spells are made , how long it takes to make one and if the wizards can keep with the astronomical speed muggles build weapons at .
     
  5. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Tactical Tomato DLP Supporter

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    The speed that Muggles can design and build new weapons at has little to no bearing on the topic.
     
  6. Shinysavage

    Shinysavage Madman With A Box Prestige

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    The only canon example of spell creation process is Snape's old textbook; it seems impractical to spread those notes across multiple books, so presumably he created those two or three spells in the space of an academic year. Granted, Snape is one of the most competent wizards we see in the series, but that would suggest that a team of people trying to develop spells to aid in a war rather than as a hobby would probably get the job done pretty quickly.

    Plus, it's not just a matter of muggles building bigger and better guns or bombs; they'd have to pretty much invent entirely new weapons technology, which would take even longer.
     
  7. Sataniel

    Sataniel Groundskeeper

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    I have this little neat theory. Let's start with my favourite quote from Pottermore - "I decided that, broadly speaking, wizards would have the power to correct or override 'mundane' nature, but not 'magical' nature." (Pottermore: Illness and Disability).

    Okay, so we have magical reality overwrite physical one. And we have that neat thing called Shield charm. Spells can break through it, as magic's ability to change magic is limited. But it also protects from physical damage, and we can assume that the Shield charm is not limited here as it is "mundane" kind of damage.

    The Shield charm can be adjusted in terms of size, the Shield charm can be used to protectively enchant place, the Shield charm can be enchanted on clothes (as of HBP).

    Assuming, my theory is true, wizards could just wear Shield hats and tank everything muggles throw at them or drink their tea in Shield charm protected houses as bombs fall around.
     
  8. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

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    We actually had an entire thread about this:

    How does a Shield Charm react to a nuclear explosion?
     
  9. Politz

    Politz Squib

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    I feel like yes a strong shield spell could stop bullets but I doubt a simple shield could stop a bomb you'd need strong wards to do that imo. The amount of power a wizard would need to be channeling into their shield to stop a bomb would be immense. What happens when a wizard uses all his magic? His shield would definitely fail, and I don't think its explored in cannon but I know in many other stories if you use too much magic that's it, you're dead.
     
  10. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    If you want to think of it in power in Muggle terms, the amount of power in a bomb is tiny compared to the stuff that would be required for what wizards do with casual ease - bend space, create kilos of matter, etc.

    But thinking of it in terms of physical energy is not a good idea, because magic is not part of the natural world. It overrules it.
     
  11. Agent One

    Agent One Seventh Year DLP Supporter

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    This may need its own thread but I'm hesitant to create one after not logging in for nearly a year.

    The majority of people on DLP seem to agree that Wizards will always win against muggles.

    I wonder though, assuming that wizard kind remain as they are and don't advance (Which they obviously will), will there ever be a time in the future where Muggles can win? Whether it be thousands or millions of years from now where muggles have unimaginable technology but wizard kind is still stuck in the early 21st century.

    This question is of I believe is controversial as future muggle technology is left up to the predictions of the individual and there is of course no way for us to tell the future, only make guesses really.
     
  12. Alistair

    Alistair First Year

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    I also think it's difficult to say. Will there be things Muggles will be better at in the future? Yes. They already have an edge with stuff like information storage, analysis and handling and arguably communications, whilst stuff like a disillusionment or levitation charm could concievably be replicated by technology. Even things like apparition may be feasible if tech advances enough. In fact I'd say muggle tech can eventually replicate most battle applicable magic we've seen: Bombarda, stunners, killing curse, imperio, cruciatus, shields even fiendfyre and apparition can concievably be emulated with the right weapons tech. Transfiguration is not quite so certain, but maybe not impossible at some point in the future. Household magic such as repairing charms, self washing dishes and the like are also achievable with sufficient tech.

    But the real stumbling block is the more conceptual stuff. Muggles will never be as good as wizards at hiding. Muggles can get better with improved camoflauge etc, but wizards can literally hide the secret of a place inside a human soul or make it physically impossible to plot a location on a map. That cannot be replicated by tech, it just doesn't mesh with the science underpinning the field. Ditto with stuff like a Horcrux, timeturners or an unbreakable charm, it just doesn't work within the paradigm of science. Muggles can for instance make a superior alloy which is similar to silk but stronger than titanium, but it's still not unbreakable. The mind arts as a whole seem difficult to replicate with tech, although this may change as the muggle understanding of the mind advances.

    So that leads us to the critical juncture, even assuming wizards don't advance as quick as muggles, not an unreasonable assumption, will the things that muggles can do that wizards can't (AI, nuclear weapons, space travel, sheer weight of numbers) overcome the stuff that is only possible through magic? I'm not convinced.
     
  13. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fifth Year

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    Isn't this what we call an argument from ignorance?
     
  14. DarthBill

    DarthBill Dark Lord

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    Why did you bump this thread to reply to something someone said in a different thread?
     
  15. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Eh, it's fine. The conversation in that thread was veering dangerously close to Wizards v. Muggles, and we were given some friendly advice to take it in here. Not even a bump given that it's a sticky.

    As to the subject of your quote, @Ninclow, I wasn't even going to bother responding to that one. He's being intentionally retarded, and there's no reason to humor it. You can extrapolate and make educated guesses based on what we know of the internal rules of the system, but saying "We did not see that exact scenario in canon, therefore your argument is invalid" is a cop-out. Shitposters gonna shitpost.
     
  16. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fifth Year

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    Can't say I see the need for, let alone condone the use of, the r-word. Still, I see your point. What's your take on it?
     
  17. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    You likely saw most of my stance in the apparation thread. HP magic is conceptual and trumps mundane nature, which makes it remarkably flexible and powerful. An example I thought of earlier to demonstrate the way it ignores scale of mundane nature is the silencing charm. Is it easier to silence a footstep than a bullhorn? That's not consistent with what we've seen depicted of the magical system. The only things that we've seen really affected are things like "complexity" with regards to transfiguration, and volume/distance.
     
  18. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fifth Year

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    I'd say that realistically, it should be more difficult, but that if you first have mastered the spell, you could still pull it off. But now, I fear, we're about to sidetrack this thread. :p
     
  19. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast Prestige DLP Supporter

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    I would say one other limit is using the appropriate spell.

    For example, from DH (Gringotts), one limit with respect to the Shield Charm appears to be that it does not work very well if you try to use it as a structural support. Of course, it may be that Harry, Hermione and Ron simply lack the expertise to do so, but on the face of it, a different spell would likely be more appropriate if you're trying to hold up a large amount of stuff (i.e. the Levitation Charm).

    This is actually another example of how energy/physical force isn't really taken into consideration by magic. A Shield Charm may well be able to protect you from a nuke, but would it keep you dry in the rain? I'm not so sure on that one. I think a bit of rain may be able to overcome a shield where a nuclear bomb cannot, simply because it's the wrong type of defence.
     
  20. GreatRedDragon

    GreatRedDragon Banned

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    No, that's what we call Hitchen's Razor.
    --- Post automerged ---
    Ditto on the lack of need to call me retarded, just proves that you really have no basis for your argument so you rely on Ad Hominem attacks. There is no evidence that Magical Nature trumps Mundane Nature, it's headcanon that you're attempting to make come off as facts. Yes, the exact scenario is needed to make an educated guess on it, or something close to said scenario, we have yet to see Wizards tank any big explosions with the shield charm, therefore it's easier to say that it can't because it requires the least amount of assumptions to get to said point.

    Though I wasn't getting into Wizards vs Muggles territory at all, I was getting into HP Magic vs another fictional Magic territory. HP Wizards are limited, they have laws, they have rules their Magic must obey, etc... All I'm saying is that it makes them decidedly weak, as there are plenty of Magic systems out there that don't have limitations (especially when Wizards require a wand and a functioning arm to cast spells).
     
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